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RE: Does God hate me? - 7/29/2010 12:23:52 PM
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Psalms274
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
alice
quote:
I assume that if I die now, it is in the Christian belief that I will be sent to hell if I do not repent?
that's a typical assumption, though just as wrong as saying that 'so-and-so' (the preacher, the choir lady, whomever) is going to heaven.
Why do you think that?
If a person has accepted Christ as Savior and Lord, he/she goes to heaven. That's in the Bible. John 3:16, among a number of verses.
If a person rejects Christ, the result is hell.
Because we do not know what is going on in their heart right before they die, and there are many who work in the church who have never given their life to Christ. I know of two who "lived" as a Christian, one went to Wheaton College, evangelized and lead bible studies, working very hard to "be a Christian," but did not actually become one until she, in her discouragement of not being able everything she was doing, finally made the decision in her heart that made her "Christian." Both her and my old pastor will tell you they served in the church for many years without knowing the Savior.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 7/29/2010 1:40:05 PM
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Elena1030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
alice
quote:
I assume that if I die now, it is in the Christian belief that I will be sent to hell if I do not repent?
that's a typical assumption, though just as wrong as saying that 'so-and-so' (the preacher, the choir lady, whomever) is going to heaven.
Why do you think that?
If a person has accepted Christ as Savior and Lord, he/she goes to heaven. That's in the Bible. John 3:16, among a number of verses.
If a person rejects Christ, the result is hell.
Because we do not know what is going on in their heart right before they die, and there are many who work in the church who have never given their life to Christ. I know of two who "lived" as a Christian, one went to Wheaton College, evangelized and lead bible studies, working very hard to "be a Christian," but did not actually become one until she, in her discouragement of not being able everything she was doing, finally made the decision in her heart that made her "Christian." Both her and my old pastor will tell you they served in the church for many years without knowing the Savior.
Yes, that's true. I agree with you. 
But saying that we don't know where believers go and where unbelievers go isn't right either.
And... we know that EuphoriaAlice hasn't accepted Christ as Savior and Lord -- she has said as much.
And if the pastor, choir lady, whomever has said that he/she has accepted Christ as Savior and Lord, then we know that the person will go to heaven as long as he/she is telling the truth and the salvation experience was bona fide.
It's not a direct comparison... that's why I was questioning facedown's logic.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 7/29/2010 11:19:26 PM
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Silas_Barnaby
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quote:
Aside from my non-belief in God, the most notable sins I can think of in my life are having sex before marriage and watching porn. quote:
If I, or anybody else has sex before marriage, under the Christian belief, it is deemed acceptable in God's eyes for that person to be dismissed from Heaven, and therefore will go to Hell instead. I think you're missing the whole point here. Its a matter of the heart. Its about what you believe. The way I understand it we are not condemned by what we do as much as the type of person we are. and by attitudes we hold onto about Jesus and the message of the Gospels.
To be convinced that we are sent to eternal torture for running red lights, sex before marriage, smoking pot or whatever is an awfully narrow-minded way of viewing the faith and I think that many people on the "outside" of the faith are sadly taken in by these kinds of shallow attitudes. Its way too bad that many of these kinds teachings are still very much alive and well.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 7/30/2010 12:11:15 AM
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AH3
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Friendly greetings,
The Son or Word and understanding of God expresses many different forms through many differing views Alice. We aid one and other. Guide and instruct one another in the Word. Begin with John The Baptist. Don't try and read it. Listen to it. It is alive with understandings.
Peace and Love.
XXX.
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It is all about the life behind the life of sense. Not above or distant, but the personal and within brought forth.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 7/30/2010 8:44:30 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The way I understand it we are not condemned by what we do as much as the type of person we are. and by attitudes we hold onto about Jesus and the message of the Gospels. Hmm, that's not how I read Matt 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD, LORD,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." How do you understand that verse, S_B? Does it matter not what "we do" as long as "we are holding the right attitude about Jesus"?
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RE: Does God hate me? - 7/30/2010 3:16:20 PM
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mvic
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Hi EuphoriaAlice,
You ask so many questions I don't even know where to start.
Does God hate you?
I doubt that very much. Let's look at it another way ... suppose you got an invitattion through the post to attend a party. You don't recognise the name of the one who sent it. You have two choices - to go to the party, or ignore the invitation.
Christians believe that God created us. That He loves us so much that He would like us to spend eternity with Him in Heaven. All we have to do is believe in Him, love Him back in return, follow the Words of His Son Jesus, and love one another.
Some people choose to believe this message. Others choose not to believe. As a result they are excluded from Heaven - they go to hell, according to what Jesus taught. It doesn't mean that God or Jesus hates them for choosing to turn down the invitation - does it?
You mention that people believe out of fear. To a great extent you are right. I wonder how people would behave if they knew for certain that God does not exist, nor does Heaven or hell for that matter. Would they behave differently; and would the world become a sinners playground?
Belief in God and love of Him should not be motivated by fear. It often wrongly is, though. It should be motivated by the free choice to believe in Him and love Him. Jesus often rererred to God as Our Father. Often we respect our parental father here on earth out of love, albeit some do so out of fear, which you'll agree is wrong. When a father corrects his child more often than not he does it out of love; and the respect he gets in return should, ideally, be motivated out of love, not fear. It's the same with our Spiritual Father and Creator in Heaven.
And now the bit where others will probably jump on me. You say you read the Bible. My advice to you is - DON'T.
The Bible is difficult to read and full of seeming contradictions and confusion.
I note you live in the UK. My advice to you is to join an Alpha Course. It is free and it is run by many churches of various denominations. Google Alpha for your nearest outlet. There you will learn from others far cleverer than I. You will probably read the Bible with others. You'll get an opportunity to ask questions and get answers. Go with an open mind and see where it leads you.
Finally, you say you appreciate someone praying for you. OK ... I'll pray for you. You came here on this Forum and slowly pushed open a door with your post above. The result is that at least two people are praying for you. That can't be bad - can it?
God bless you.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/1/2010 9:51:35 AM
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facedown
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elena
quote:
If a person has accepted Christ as Savior and Lord, he/she goes to heaven. That's in the Bible. John 3:16, among a number of verses.
i said nothing about "accepting" or "rejecting", but "association"
euphorialice didn't say "i reject christ", though seems to be unsure about faith/god/jesus/church/etc.
neither you, nor i know where ones heart truly lays.
indeed, many in scripture who made such assumptions were slammed by jesus (on both sides of the coin)
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/2/2010 1:24:41 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 3217
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From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
elena
quote:
If a person has accepted Christ as Savior and Lord, he/she goes to heaven. That's in the Bible. John 3:16, among a number of verses.
i said nothing about "accepting" or "rejecting", but "association"
euphorialice didn't say "i reject christ", though seems to be unsure about faith/god/jesus/church/etc.
neither you, nor i know where ones heart truly lays.
indeed, many in scripture who made such assumptions were slammed by jesus (on both sides of the coin)
Perhaps, but from how your first post was worded and how I read it, I did not infer what you are saying now. Thank you for clarifying.
So... we're actually more on the same page than both of us thought we were.
_____________________________
"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/6/2010 1:18:37 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 856
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EuphoriaAlice
I hope I won't get jumped on here. I try my best to be open about my ignorance regarding much to do with Christian faith and many other religions, but I am not willfully ignorant or at all comfortable in my ignorance, I am learning all the time and this forum is a great aid to my learning so I just ask that you bear with me.
I am an agnostic, and there are many sins I haven't repented for, nor do I currently believe that I should repent for them or see anything truly wrong with them. Aside from my non-belief in God, the most notable sins I can think of in my life are having sex before marriage and watching porn.
I assume that if I die now, it is in the Christian belief that I will be sent to hell if I do not repent?
Am I to believe that God loves me despite him sending me to hell?
Surely this is the action of somebody who absolutely hates me.
Hello EuphoriaAlice: Ill try and help you if I can by Gods grace.
Please allow me to speak plainly to you. I ask that you consider what I say coming from a Christian man.
In regards to sins, this is entirely the problem and it will need solving before you ever venture into the kingdom of God to know God or enjoy any blessings of the new covenant.
In your present condition you are condemned by God already for your sins. John 3:18 and even more strongly the wrath of God abides upon you John 3:36 at this moment as well. Being in unbelief is dangerous. Today is the day of salvation and everyone that has been awakened to seek or listen to the gospel becomes aware that when such horrible judgment awaits you, its not time to procrastinate...or listen to the faithless counselors that would have you question the pangs of conscience you feel or doubt the impending judgment that will come upon you unless radical changes occur. So, your initial worries are not unfounded, they are true and indeed far more near than you realize.
Let me enlarge a little, your own confession that your habits of sin to you are not a concern. Let me enlighten you, they should be. Fornicators and adulterers God will judge. They will be cast into the lake of fire and there suffer eternal consequences for such sin. This is a present reality, though unseen by you and apparently without much discerning. But by the grace of God, youve come here and hopefully God will use this to prevent your destruction.
You asked the question does God hate you? The answer is given, God hates the workers of iniquity. So, there you have it. What youve done, what youve said, what way youve lived outside of God's purposes..God hates it and in turn it makes you the object of wrath and condemnation. You are not special in this regard, God hates all the workers of iniquity and they are equally condemned and under His wrath as you are.
If you are ever to recover and be saved, you will need to understand your present condition is dire, your agnosticism only blinds you while you grope in darkness. God sees you for exactly what you are, and exactly whats in your heart. All of your thoughts and all of your actions have been noted and will be evidence against you on judgment day. These things are terribly ominous and they are the truth about you.
Some hindrances that should be considered.
If your apathetic about your condition, this is very bad, if you care so little for your soul and so little that tomorrow you may be in hell, it all the more shows the necessity of awaking you to your true condition.
If youre self-righteous, meaning that you consider yourself better than Christians or better than others because youve acted morally better or youve judged others as inferior, this is also bad; God will not judge you according to the standard of men, but according to the Holy Word of God, he will weigh you in the balance of Jesus Christ and self-righteousness is always 'vanity' and lighter than air, it carries no weight with God.
If youre holding on to sin, this is terribly bad, for your idols will be like boat anchors to weigh you down to punishment. God will not permit your idolatry to continue forever and will put a stop to it, either by your repentance or by death of the body.
The present reality consists of your person in a condition that is completely dead to God, following after the prince of darkness, living out a life in rebellion and opposition to God's rule. Though you cannot see these things, they are seen by God and bare upon you regardless of your admission of them.
There is good news. The condition you are in is not in anyway a hindrance to God saving you. God has declared that anyone who will humble himself and call out to Jesus Christ, believing God has raised him from the dead will be saved. Rom 10:10. God has undertaken to do for sinners what they could not do for themselves. You are dead, but Jesus Christ is full of the godhead bodily, meaning he is the author if life and is able to raise from the dead anyone that believes in him. John 5. John 11.
You are completely unable to secure the salvation of God by anything you do to 'fix' yourself. God refuses any self-help programs and will refuse yours.
God requires that we confess our sins, that we repent of our sins. But, as Ive said earlier unless you take more care for your own soul you will continue to allow the death-dealing of sin to keep you in condemnation. The God that judges is the God that saves. There is no mediator between God and man except the man Christ Jesus. To Him you must go, to Jesus Christ you need to surrender your sinful and hopeless condition. God has declared that there is only one acceptable way to God, that way is Jesus himself. There is only one who has made such a sacrifice of his person to deliver you from the wrath to come, that person is God's own Son.
Being forgiven of sins is as simple as believing that God will forgive you for every last sin youve done or will do. But, as I said, you must put away your efforts to stay 'aloof' from Christ by agnostic thinking. Do you need testimony? There are millions upon millions who have committed themselves to Christ and have found forgiveness of sin and the blessings of God eternally. God will no longer be an enemy to you, He will no longer appoint you to wrath or threaten to destroy you. Instead you can enjoy the God of creation as a friend and brother. The enmity in your heart can be removed and the
doubts about your God will be wiped away.
God will be your Father and Jesus will be as a brother to you, the Holy Spirit will indwell you and make you to know the love and reality of unseen but very real things.
All of this and so much more is offered to you...and sufferings and trials and tribulations in this world too. Jesus will require you to follow him at all costs and you will need to take up your cross daily to become his disciple. Those that love the Lord Jesus carry the cross, they bear affliction and endure trials and persecutions in order to know the love of God in their hearts. He is supremely worthy of our love and worship.
You have the opportunity to enter into Christ, believe upon Jesus, surrender your life completely to him without holding on to sin or apathy or self-righteousness...call upon Him for he is near. Isa 55
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/6/2010 3:34:19 PM
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SuspenseWriter
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Well said, John. And Alice, to expand on one point: every time you say no to Him, to His free gift of a new life in Christ, your heart grows a little more hard (the Bible talks many times about this). Do it often enough, and one day the callus is complete. In sorrow God will turn from you, and leave you to yourself. At that point, it's over. You're simply marking time to the grave.
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Until the Last Dog Dies, When Skylarks Fall, To Skin a Cat, and Heading Home. Coming: The Radiance (August 2011), and Relentless (August 2012)
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http://www.johnrobinsonbooks.com/blo
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/7/2010 12:59:19 AM
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abraxas
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For those of you who believe that God knows the future as clearly as he knows the past, you have a problem. If God sees that in Bob's future he continually says no to the point of no return, God's entreatment of that person is as sensible as my "hoping" that my friend didn't get arrested last year. Is there a past-tense form for requests? Can I call him and say, "Please don't have gotten arrested last year"? My continued asking and continued disappointment is akin to God's continued sorrow for being rejected by humans he knows full well aren't going to believe in him.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/7/2010 1:04:55 AM
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MrFribbles
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One of the reasons I'm an open theist, abraxas.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/7/2010 1:39:56 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 856
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
For those of you who believe that God knows the future as clearly as he knows the past, you have a problem. If God sees that in Bob's future he continually says no to the point of no return, God's entreatment of that person is as sensible as my "hoping" that my friend didn't get arrested last year. Is there a past-tense form for requests? Can I call him and say, "Please don't have gotten arrested last year"? My continued asking and continued disappointment is akin to God's continued sorrow for being rejected by humans he knows full well aren't going to believe in him.
Abraxas: As a good lawyer for the Devil it seems you will make God insincere irregardless of sending His Son, but Ill answer. The scripture tell us to pray and not to faint. We are to not grow weary in well doing and finally
we are commanded to preach the gospel to every creature. We must with patience entreat the ungodly, as has been your own experience since youve come here.
You have no idea of anyones final state.
John
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Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/7/2010 2:00:47 AM
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abraxas
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No John, I don't. But I do know that my friend was arrested last year. The question is, Does God know a person's final state? If not, as Mr Fribbles might say, my analogy doesn't work.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/7/2010 9:05:58 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5801
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
For those of you who believe that God knows the future as clearly as he knows the past, you have a problem. If God sees that in Bob's future he continually says no to the point of no return, God's entreatment of that person is as sensible as my "hoping" that my friend didn't get arrested last year. Is there a past-tense form for requests? Can I call him and say, "Please don't have gotten arrested last year"? My continued asking and continued disappointment is akin to God's continued sorrow for being rejected by humans he knows full well aren't going to believe in him.quote:
One of the reasons I'm an open theist, abraxas.
One of the reasons I support divine middle knowledge.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/9/2010 4:40:19 AM
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DanM2010
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
One of the reasons I support divine middle knowledge.
What's divine middle knowledge?
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Those who live in glass houses should probably change clothes in the basement.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/9/2010 7:58:13 AM
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drmark
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quote:
What's divine middle knowledge?
http://www.theopedia.com/Molinism
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/9/2010 4:29:20 PM
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DanM2010
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Thanks.
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Those who live in glass houses should probably change clothes in the basement.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/10/2010 12:07:29 PM
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abraxas
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I can see how open theism can account for a God that perstists in entreating, but divine middle knowledge not so much. I admit it might be that I don't quite get the divine middle knowledge theory.
Both, however, still suggest some indifference on God's part (if hate is too strong a word), considering the wretched eternal fate that in either case he must know awaits a sizeable amount of his own creations.
After all, how does one reconcile the ideas that A) God loves each and every one of his creations, with B) that he has knowingly put them into a world that guarantees that some significant percentage will suffer that wretched eternal fate?
Is it presumed that God actually fashioned this Hell, or is it a default position that he didn't have control over?
One other question on divine middle knowledge, if drmark or anyone else cares to answer--Considering Bob (a guy who in the end went to Hell): Was there ever a point when God wasn't sure if Bob would end up in Hell or not?
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/10/2010 12:11:12 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Is it presumed that God actually fashioned this Hell, or is it a default position that he didn't have control over?
The common understanding is that hell was originally "built" for the fallen angels who rebelled, and that it was an unfortunate consequence of humanity's rebellion that it ever became possible for some folks to end up there.
quote:
After all, how does one reconcile the ideas that A) God loves each and every one of his creations, with B) that he has knowingly put them into a world that guarantees that some significant percentage will suffer that wretched eternal fate?
Genuine love takes risk. If God didn't want any of his creation to end up in hell, he would have had to have removed free will. Doing so, however, would render any relationship with his creation worthless - he might as well have built robots to praise him. The atrocious fact that so many people are dying without Christ is not a reflection on God's love for humanity, but the terrible failure of those he has entrusted with his mission - the Church.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/10/2010 12:32:21 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
abraxas: Is it presumed that God actually fashioned this Hell, or is it a default position that he didn't have control over?
The common understanding is that hell was originally "built" for the fallen angels who rebelled, and that it was an unfortunate consequence of humanity's rebellion that it ever became possible for some folks to end up there.
Okay, but don't you have to really (even for an open theist) limit God's understanding of the future to say that he really didn't know that his human creations would face it as well? (I would question his building it even for his fallen angels, but that would clutter up the thread--another time maybe.)
quote:
abraxas: After all, how does one reconcile the ideas that A) God loves each and every one of his creations, with B) that he has knowingly put them into a world that guarantees that some significant percentage will suffer that wretched eternal fate?
quote:
Genuine love takes risk. If God didn't want any of his creation to end up in hell, he would have had to have removed free will. Doing so, however, would render any relationship with his creation worthless - he might as well have built robots to praise him. The atrocious fact that so many people are dying without Christ is not a reflection on God's love for humanity, but the terrible failure of those he has entrusted with his mission - the Church.
I wouldn't be so hard on the Church--I think the odds are very well-stacked against them. (I'm not a believer that belief is a simple matter of free will, and it does seem that it all hinges on that--what we believe.)
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/10/2010 12:43:13 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Okay, but don't you have to really (even for an open theist) limit God's understanding of the future to say that he really didn't know that his human creations would face it as well?
It's hard to say - we don't get a lot of insight into the mind of God prior to humanity's creation. I'm sure he realized that some of humanity would face it, since Christ was never plan B after humanity sinned - he knew people would require salvation from sin.
quote:
I wouldn't be so hard on the Church--I think the odds are very well-stacked against them.
Today, sure. But back a couple hundred years, or a thousand years, Christianity was the religion of the Western super powers. And what did we do? Played it for power and profit. We Christians screwed up - often violently. Not that all Christian history is bleak, but for the most part the Church has failed in her mission.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/10/2010 12:55:38 PM
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drmark
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quote:
One other question on divine middle knowledge, if drmark or anyone else cares to answer--Considering Bob (a guy who in the end went to Hell): Was there ever a point when God wasn't sure if Bob would end up in Hell or not? I'm unaware of anything that God is not "sure of". A better question is why Bob ended up in hell when God gave him so much opportunity not to!
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/10/2010 1:04:30 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Okay, but don't you have to really (even for an open theist) limit God's understanding of the future to say that he really didn't know that his human creations would face it as well?
It's hard to say - we don't get a lot of insight into the mind of God prior to humanity's creation. I'm sure he realized that some of humanity would face it, since Christ was never plan B after humanity sinned - he knew people would require salvation from sin.
That's why the explanation that "hell was intended for the Devil and his minions" has never sat well with me.
quote:
I wouldn't be so hard on the Church--I think the odds are very well-stacked against them.
Today, sure. But back a couple hundred years, or a thousand years, Christianity was the religion of the Western super powers. And what did we do? Played it for power and profit. We Christians screwed up - often violently. Not that all Christian history is bleak, but for the most part the Church has failed in her mission.
I wonder if the stacked deck is like turtles, all the way down, but that's food for thought I'll take away from this, thanks.
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RE: Does God hate me? - 8/10/2010 1:08:34 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 295
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I'm unaware of anything that God is not "sure of". A better question is why Bob ended up in hell when God gave him so much opportunity not to!
I suppose you'd have to ask God that, since it's quite possible not even Bob would know what you're talking about.
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