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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 2/28/2010 3:51:43 PM
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slartibartfast9
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For those of you who doubt the fallen angel (Nephilim) view of Genesis, and also who doubt their connection with the modern-day UFO phenomenon, how do you explain the following?
1) J. Allen Hynek, PhD, head of Astrology at Cornell University, has spent a lifetime studying the modern UFO evidence and his final conclusion is that they are demonic.
2) Jaqcue Vallee, PhD, who is the most respected ufologist in France, ALSO has concluded that the UFO phenomenon is demonic.
3) John Mack, PhD, a psychiatrist at Harvard University, has issued "Mack's Challenge" which asks the psychological community to explain the overwhelming consistency of reports of people who claim alien abduction. He also notes there virtually no history in these patients of psychological disorders.
4) Gordon Cooper, former U.S. astronaut, has testified before the United Nations that extraterrestrials are (and were in history) visiting the earth.
5) 1-3% of the U.S. population claims to have experienced an alien abduction.
6) A recurring theme in virtually ALL abduction reports is the victim stating he/she had their reproductive organs experimented on (ie, women's ovaries being removed or men's sperm being extracted).
I do not claim to know it all. But anyone who makes an honest investigation CAN find enough. I have not listed "questionable" things here. All these above listings are what EVERYONE, regardless of viewpoint, has to accept as fact. Whether you find some OTHER interpretation or not, you still have to acknowledge the above.
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/1/2010 2:39:27 AM
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wolfvanzandt
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quote:
You should know that I don't believe that the "Nephilim" are the offspring of demons and humans. Nowhere in Scripture is there any evidence that spirit-creatures (angels and demons) have any kind of creative power whatsoever. In other words, there is no Scriptural support that any spirit but God can create life.
I'm studying that passage right now. Actually, Jude, I Peter and every document of antiquity I've been able to find that discusses the issue states that the "sons of God" were angels.
The only place I'm hanging up is that, despite that the original Hebrew seems pretty clear to me that the "men of renown" (the offspring of the "sons of God" and the "daughters of men") and the Nephalim are different people, most modern commentators seem to accept that they are the same. Am I missing something here?
Some of the commentaries on the original language that I have been reading indicate that "giant" did not necessarily mean "giant in stature". It could have just as easily have been used in the same way that we use it when we say, "giants of baseball", that is, as a superlative. Of course, Goliath was huge for a human (though nothing of fairy tale dimensions), but that doesn't mean that they were all that huge.
There is one "scientific" being that fits the bill of a humanoid that is not actually human - Neanderthal.
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/1/2010 9:08:43 PM
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slartibartfast9
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Good points, wolf.
It's funny but my interest in this subject started out with the notion of Nephilim being giants; but the more I research the farther I get away from giants and closer to extraterrestrials on earth.
You are spot on when you say "sons of God" (or "elohim" in Hebrew) is referring to angels. Even ancient sources outside the Bible confirm this.
Do you have any more information on the distinction you made between Nephilim and "men of renown"? I had never thought about that; I always assumed it was the same.
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/3/2010 3:31:14 AM
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wolfvanzandt
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Well, I know that the books of Enoch and Josephus all assume that the Nephalim and the men of renown and the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men were the same people, but I've looked minutely at the Hebrew of Genesis 6 and I can't, for the life of me, make the Nephalim and men of renown be the same people. I'm stuck there and, based on what I see, the authors of the Enochs and Josephus were wrong.
As far as angels being extraterrestrial, they certainly are, but not in the sense of being from other planets. The problem with substantial beings being from other planets is that the speed of light offers a pretty much unbreachable barrier. How can they get here from other planets?
Angels are insubstantial by their essential nature. They can have a substantial body but it's not their primary nature to do so.
I see no reason at all to assume that they're beings originating from other planets. Unfortunately, smart people are not immune from letting their imaginations run away with them. New Age is a disease and intelligence isn't a factor in its immunity.
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/3/2010 8:44:19 AM
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creaton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: slartibartfast9
So are some of you saying that you don't believe giants were real in the Bible, or that there is some other explanation?
How do you explain this verse?
And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
-Numbers 13:33
Embellishment?
A tall tale to make it all sound more impressive?
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/3/2010 10:37:51 PM
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slartibartfast9
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wolfvanzandt
Well, I know that the books of Enoch and Josephus all assume that the Nephalim and the men of renown and the offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men were the same people, but I've looked minutely at the Hebrew of Genesis 6 and I can't, for the life of me, make the Nephalim and men of renown be the same people. I'm stuck there and, based on what I see, the authors of the Enochs and Josephus were wrong.
As far as angels being extraterrestrial, they certainly are, but not in the sense of being from other planets. The problem with substantial beings being from other planets is that the speed of light offers a pretty much unbreachable barrier. How can they get here from other planets?
Angels are insubstantial by their essential nature. They can have a substantial body but it's not their primary nature to do so.
I see no reason at all to assume that they're beings originating from other planets. Unfortunately, smart people are not immune from letting their imaginations run away with them. New Age is a disease and intelligence isn't a factor in its immunity.
My belief is that the extraterrestrial phenomenon, as we know it, can be explained as angels, particularly demonic angels, visiting earth in physical form. The Bible makes it CLEAR that angels are capable to being physical. Just look at how Abraham ate food with angels. I'm not smart, but I know that you can't eat food unless you are physical.
I haven't given much thought to ETs orginiating from other planets. I won't support this idea; nor will I deny the possibility.
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/4/2010 1:26:58 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creaton
quote:
ORIGINAL: slartibartfast9
So are some of you saying that you don't believe giants were real in the Bible, or that there is some other explanation?
How do you explain this verse?
And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.
-Numbers 13:33
Embellishment?
A tall tale to make it all sound more impressive?
The question is the explanation of giants in the Bible. He was saying that there are giants in the Bible. How does the the word "embellishment" answer the question exactly?
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/4/2010 8:07:42 PM
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tacitus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: slartibartfast9
My belief is that the extraterrestrial phenomenon, as we know it, can be explained as angels, particularly demonic angels, visiting earth in physical form. The Bible makes it CLEAR that angels are capable to being physical. Just look at how Abraham ate food with angels. I'm not smart, but I know that you can't eat food unless you are physical.
I haven't given much thought to ETs orginiating from other planets. I won't support this idea; nor will I deny the possibility.
While I wish there were aliens tootling around scaring the living daylights out half-cut farmers in remote corners of America, I don't believe there is any reason to suspect any paranormal or supernatural or alien cause for UFOs and their related phenomena.
While there may be a mountain of paperwork gathered over the decades since the obsession with UFOs began, the collective works are actually terribly thin on actual hard evidence.
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/8/2010 11:56:33 PM
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slartibartfast9
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Just some evidence for extraterrestrials:
1) Minimum of 3,000 validated, non-hoax photographs of UFOs.
2) 1-3% of U.S. population claims to have been abducted--and the majority of these are by people with no prior history of psychosocial disorders.
3) Sightings of UFOs and extraterrestrials is a worldwide phenomenon--even in third world countries who are not influenced by media of developed nations.
4) Sightings of UFOs have been documented hundreds of years before humans learned to fly. Christopher Columbus reported seeing a bright craft flying through the air and moving in strange manners. The ancient Sumerians reported flying discs coming from the heavens and even named a planet from which they believed these aliens came.
5) Too many men of high education and/or training support this phenomenon for it to be ignored. These include astronauts (Gordon Cooper), former presidents (Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter), medical psychiatrists (Dr. John E. Mack), medical surgeons (Dr. Roger Leir), and doctorates of biblical study (Dr. Chuck Missler)--to name a few.
6) The Bible clearly, conclusively states that angels and demons have visited earth in physical form.
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/9/2010 1:31:12 AM
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tacitus
Posts: 2312
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quote:
1) Minimum of 3,000 validated, non-hoax photographs of UFOs.
I suspect that's coming from UFO experts, not neutral observers. There are also plenty of natural and photographic phenomena that can explain a photo without resorting to aliens or fakes as explanations. Also UFO /= aliens, it just means UFO.
Just look at this amazing footage -- mundane things can produce extraordinary looking visuals.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sundog&search_type=&aq=f
quote:
2) 1-3% of U.S. population claims to have been abducted--and the majority of these are by people with no prior history of psychosocial disorders.
That would mean between 3 and 9 million people! It just isn't credible to claim that so many people have been abducted without the aliens leaving any hard evidence of it happening. If anything, this is evidence that there is some sort of natural explanation -- probably a mix of physiological (sleep paralysis) and psychological (false memories) explanation for all of this.
quote:
3) Sightings of UFOs and extraterrestrials is a worldwide phenomenon--even in third world countries who are not influenced by media of developed nations.
It's not surprising that this would be world wide. People are essentially physiologicaly and psychologically very similar the world over.
quote:
4) Sightings of UFOs have been documented hundreds of years before humans learned to fly. Christopher Columbus reported seeing a bright craft flying through the air and moving in strange manners. The ancient Sumerians reported flying discs coming from the heavens and even named a planet from which they believed these aliens came.
Well, to be accurate, a few popular authors make that claim about Sumeria and sold a lot of books as a result. Most scholars believe they are references to deities or perhaps some allegorical tale about natural disasters. There is no hard evidence from these early writings. (Note there are also many pre-industrial tales of people seeing demons, angels, fairies, goblins, leprechauns etc too. But again, never any hard evidence.
5) Too many men of high education and/or training support this phenomenon for it to be ignored. These include astronauts (Gordon Cooper), former presidents (Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter), medical psychiatrists (Dr. John E. Mack), medical surgeons (Dr. Roger Leir), and doctorates of biblical study (Dr. Chuck Missler)--to name a few.
Educated people can be tricked and deluded too -- and spectacularly so. Believe me, I know all too well!
i am highly dubious that there is any form of physical spiritual warfare going on at all. I am also pretty skeptical of other extraordinary claims of UFO (you know what they say about extraordinary claims). Not least, this is because there are tens of thousands (at least) of people who make it their mission in life to look for strange and incredible things and events in the sky. I am, of course, talking about astronomers. If these things are as commonplace as they must be to have up to 9 million people affected -- that's over 400 abductions a night for 80 years!! -- then I cannot help but conclude that the astronomers must be seeing at least fraction of these things, and yet there is nothing to report.
As I said, I would love nothing more than for these aliens to be real (and not demonic, I guess). Their discovery would mark a day that would be remembered for all time, and I would love to be alive when that happens. But, realistically, even if I live another 50 years, I very much doubt I will see it happen.
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/9/2010 7:07:32 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: slartibartfast9
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
-Genesis 6:4
What I am CERTAIN of is that giants did exist. How tall they were, I don't know. How human they were, I don't know. Whether or not they had additional superhuman (or even magical) powers, I also don't know.
The fact that these giants were referred to as "men of renown" seems to hint that: 1) they resembled the physical appearance of "men", 2) some additional powers might have been possessed by them to warrant the descript of being "renown".
Greetings
Perhaps you’re not getting all that there is to be seen there,
What seems to be shown in that passage…. separates at least 3 types of things
The first, is the mention that there were giants in the earth… in… those days
and also after that, means afterwards…
Therefore by
The second set of words… saying…. And= (in addition to the Giants in the Earth) and = also “after that”
……This could go either way…
“After that” …..Could be representing an “in like manner”… as there “were also” at the same time (the sons of God) in the earth
Or that could be suggesting by the words >and also after that<>>= after the Giants… was WHEN …the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men,
That can be gathered by this next sentence
… Because it is defined ….as WHEN …the “sons of God” (NOT THE GIANTS)_ came in unto the daughters of men, THAT they (the daughters of men) bare children to them,=>> to the sons of God
Therefore ….
depending on how one sees these words, the verse is speaking of these mighty men who were of old, (THE) men of renown,
Therefore
The information being given by that is suggesting that “the mighty men which “were of old, (THE) men of renown ….came from the off spring of the sons of God who were born through the daughters of men…. >(Not born of the Giants that were in the earth beforehand)<,
There are only 3 choices
We have Giants
We have the sons of God
And we have MEN of renown
>(The same)< Strong's H1992
Therefore “the same seems to be suggesting that - hem >”third person plural” masculine personal pronoun
1) they, these, the same, who
They (the daughters of men) bore children to them, (the sons of God) ….and those Children… were the mighty “men” which were of old, …>“men”<… of renown. = (Not Giants.. nor sons of God, of renown) … but “MEN”
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/10/2010 3:10:07 AM
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spiritualwatchman
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Hello.
The "giants" in gen6;4 are a different species than every other mention of giant(s) in the bible...
The pre-flood giants, I do believe was some sort of demonic/human hybred situation...
Can a person be a true Christian and deny the hierarchy of the fallen angels? I mean they are our enemies that we are commanded to repel...without understanding the kingdom of God we can not be servants at our full potential...but hey, I'm a spiritual warrior what else way could I see it.
Someone mentioned the "caveman". Scripture teaches the truth of the caveman but people refuse to see it...interested?
spiritualwatchman
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/10/2010 8:32:37 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4119
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gralan
I'd like to clarify because of a later post... I believe there were giants. I reject any alien sexual encounters with human beings out of hand. Demons are aliens to humans. First off, the theory is that the sexual encounters were with fallen angels, NOT demons. There is a difference that would be too far OT to go into here. Do a query on my name and fallen angels to read why they are different.
Angels can appear human, even archangels. Abraham saw 3 men coming to him who turned out to be a messianophany and 2 angels (that ultimately called down destruction on Sodom). Daniel talked about "the man Michael." Angels have bodies and can mimic humanity. There is nothing against scripture to say that a fallen angel could pass themselves off has human and have sex with someone.
Beastiaity would also be an 'alien sexual encounter.' The reason it had to be forbidden is that it can (and does) happen.
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/12/2010 4:15:15 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Can a person be a true Christian and deny the hierarchy of the fallen angels?
Huh...and here I was thinking that believing in Christ as the Messiah made one a 'true' Christian......
quote:
but hey, I'm a spiritual warrior what else way could I see it.
There is no class of 'spiritual warriors'...we are all called to put on the armor of God (Ephesians)
God does not have a class of 'special agent spiritual warriors'......
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/13/2010 2:50:08 AM
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spiritualwatchman
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Solarflare,
Can I not be lighthearted and have a bit of humor with my faith? Nitpick nitpick...lol...
Not everyone has experienced true warfare...I have been told by the Lord to lay hands on one side of a prayer meeting and be at "war" with a "witch" on the other side...I can feel the demons pounding on my armor but the attacks can not penetrate the precious blood of my Lord and Savior Jesus the Christ and in the end the "demon-master"(satanic-warlock) was repelled from the church!
I have had "witches" lay their hands on me and say "bless me" and the Lord told me to speak "bless you" and the spirits that was in them and on them was blown out and away, she was left naked and afraid in the precense of Almighty God...call me what you will, but I will still be a soldier for my LORD...AMEN
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/14/2010 12:06:32 AM
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spiritualwatchman
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Solarflare,
I agree with you 100 percent, but you better make sure you are walking inside the Holy Ghost when you go marching into a lair of satan...that's all I can say.
L8R,
Brian
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I See You.
:)
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/14/2010 8:02:23 AM
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solarflare
Posts: 1298
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quote:
ORIGINAL: spiritualwatchman
Solarflare,
I agree with you 100 percent, but you better make sure you are walking inside the Holy Ghost when you go marching into a lair of satan...that's all I can say.
L8R,
Brian
Okey dokey...lets settle something here watchman....I am not a cessationist....but I am not a sensationalist either.
I do not have the impression you are insincere, but, linguistics aside, you are not telling me something I do not know....but I do not care to make a story of it (not saying you are) or be in awe of any of it (not saying you are)
In my experience, you don't have to go out 'gunning' for the demonic. If you are serving the Lord, someone ususally comes 'gunning' for you....and often, another Christian misapplying what they think they know.
Nevertheless, I do not think it wise or godly, to wrap everyone up in the same paper or color them with the same crayon...it is one thing to judge the fruit, but another to judge the heart.
I have a nose for things that don't 'smell' right and part of that comes from a good number of years of experience. However, I do not put my experience up as the light by which I will do anything...but rather Scripture is the light we walk in. I am sure you would acknowledge that also.
Anyway, this is not really on topic...so enough of that
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/14/2010 9:36:58 AM
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amyk
Posts: 108
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quote:
J. Allen Hynek, PhD, head of Astrology at Cornell University
Is this really supposed to say "Astronomy" instead of "Astrology"?
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/14/2010 2:40:06 PM
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captainfraulein
Posts: 234
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From: Planet Earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Angels can appear human, even archangels. Abraham saw 3 men coming to him who turned out to be a messianophany and 2 angels (that ultimately called down destruction on Sodom). Daniel talked about "the man Michael." Angels have bodies and can mimic humanity. There is nothing against scripture to say that a fallen angel could pass themselves off has human and have sex with someone.
What is a messianophany?
_____________________________
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." -Jim Elliot
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/16/2010 2:08:27 PM
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jhuperetes
Posts: 1948
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I presume Messiah - phany
"Appear to be" Messiah, although I never heard of the word before either.
quote:
ORIGINAL: captainfraulein
What is a messianophany?
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/16/2010 3:11:06 PM
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ManimalX
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The proper theological term is usually "Christophany", the appearance of a pre-incarnate Christ in the Old Testament. Some also just call it a "Theophany", an appearance of God.
I've never heard of "messianophany", but I know what he means by it.
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"The fool says in his heart, 'There is no God.'" - Psalms 14:1
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ" - 2 Cor 10:5
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/21/2010 12:43:56 PM
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PeterD
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Hello slartibartfast9
quote:
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
-Genesis 6:4
As I was searching the internet I came across this site saying things about
: Giants and Nephilim
www.biblelight.net/nephilim.htm
interpreted by Michael Scheifler who is saying:
quote:
The increasingly popular interpretation of the following passage is that it relates a story of angels interbreeding with the human race, and that this was a primary reason for God destroying most of humanity with the great flood.
First of all, it should be pointed out that angels are not humans, they are quite different creations of God. Satan and the other angels are spirit beings, and simply cannot have physical offspring (children). They do not marry (Matt. 22:28, Mark 12:25), they are incapable of procreation, and so are genderless creatures.
etc.......................and after many words then a good the conclusion
quote:
It should be clear, to even a casual reader, that we have entered into the days of the Son of Man. History is repeating itself. There are "giants" on the Earth again. The Nephilim, those who follow the way of Cain, and are bold in their rebellion against God, again are filling the earth with sin and violence. Man's cup of iniquity is again reaching the brim, and God will not let it continue much longer. We have no angels to place blame on, and neither did those people in the time of Noah. Mankind is willfully abandoning God for the sake of the sins of iniquity. Yes, Satan and the other fallen angels can tempt mankind, just as Eve was tempted, but the choice to sin was Eve's and Adam's, and is also ours to make. The door of probation is soon to close again on this wicked world, just as it did for the people of Noah's generation, but this will be for the final time.
PD
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RE: Giants and Nephilim - 3/21/2010 12:56:24 PM
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slartibartfast9
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This is something that I wrestled with as well. Obviously angels do not marry in the sense of becoming "one flesh". Obviously there will be no marriage in heaven.
However, this verse still needs to be reconciled:
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:6-7)
Why does it use the connecting phrase "even as" to draw a comparison between the fallen angels and the Sodomites "going after strange flesh". If that's a coincidence, I am trying to figure out another explantion for the "even as" comparison.
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