RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories more legit than the others around the world?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/5/2010 7:27:58 PM
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GREATHIWAY
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"I don't see any reason whatsoever why you should. I'm only telling you that I do, so, it makes perfect (and honest) sense that I consider His revelation to be reliable."
I guess we just disagree, It simply strains my credulity too great to believe the earth formed before the sun and stars. We can actually see stars today with telescopes that are older then the earth, We can see other solar system forming, almost all the elements in our bodies were formed in the crucible of a previous generation o stars that went supernova. If Genesis was right even our basic understanding of cosmology is painfuly wrong, and any ability we think we have to tell us what is true or false about the world would be very questionable, Why not then say the moon is made of green cheese, or that diesease's arent caused by germs but equaly likely culprits are evil spirits....
( why make any attempt or claim that this book represents a reality we can understand)
"Not understanding God is pretty normal... I wouldn't have much respect for a God that fit easily into my own brain. There are ordinary concrete things that I don't grasp. I can't even spell! Why would I presume to grasp God who transcends my own being by a million times? "
Yes it is pertty normal for all religions to use the numenous as evidence in their favor. But Its cleary a double standard, Read Duet ch13, Is being a doubting thomas only praise worthy with respect to other religions?
But if you think about it, this way of thinking is a self contradiction your saying we can't know about god beacuse he is mysterious but we can know very specfic things about god. Why doesnt this way of thinking equaly favor other dogmas and gods?
(argument from ignorance) We cant know therfore I know.
And mis-interpretation of empirical evidence into a flawed scientific model is something that people often do... even if they include 'all' the evidence.
If you have epistemelogical framework you think is better then science to tell us what is actually true or false about the world I would like to hear it?
Why is the sun at the center of our solar system? Can we know this without science?
Ptolomy math of epicycles proves it does not need to be the case.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/5/2010 9:46:57 PM
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bolt.
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quote:
But if you think about it, this way of thinking is a self contradiction your saying we can't know about god beacuse he is mysterious but we can know very specfic things about god
God communicates. When He does, we believe it, but we know that we don't grasp the whole picture, because the whole picture is ungraspable.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/6/2010 4:36:51 PM
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creaton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
And mis-interpretation of empirical evidence into a flawed scientific model is something that people often do... even if they include 'all' the evidence.
Right - but it takes ignoring all the evidence, or shoe-horning the evidence into some Scripture-friendly fantasy to conclude that the bible is 100% true.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/6/2010 5:33:19 PM
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bolt.
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That really depends what you mean by 100% true.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/7/2010 5:21:10 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: creaton
quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
And mis-interpretation of empirical evidence into a flawed scientific model is something that people often do... even if they include 'all' the evidence.
Right - but it takes ignoring all the evidence, or shoe-horning the evidence into some Scripture-friendly fantasy to conclude that the bible is 100% true.
I love it when atheists get their feathers all ruffled and try to lash out against the Bible!
Go ahead, creaton, prove something in the Bible wrong (besides the well known scribal errors, that is)! You would probably become the most famous person in the history of humanity! Go ahead. Something scientific, perhaps. This should be good.
Funny thing is, people (and demons) have been trying to disprove God's word since He first spoke creation into being, and none have succeeded yet  But, go ahead and keep putting your faith in "science" that continually changes its mind, "science" that uncovers more questions every time it comes up with a new "answer".
The rest of us dumb religious dummies will just keep limping along with our God crutch. See you at the finish line!  Hopefully you have the same crutch by the time you get there 
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/7/2010 8:32:41 PM
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Dante_Alighieri
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quote:
But, go ahead and keep putting your faith in "science" that continually changes its mind, "science" that uncovers more questions every time it comes up with a new "answer".
It's curious that you might degrade science for not being static, as science is only useful if it does continue to change and improve itself. Imagine if science has not "changed its mind" when polio came along.
But rather than a system of discovery that is in a constant state of self-improvement by constantly questioning itself and incorporating new data to our understanding, you would prefer something static, and unchanging?
That's absurd. Refusal to question one's own understanding of truth, and to reevaluate that understanding by incorporating new pieces of evidence will only lead to static ignorance.
Which probably explains why Christianity has never and will never be able to intrinsically improve or benefit society the same way rational and ever-changing science can.
No god defeated polio, or the Spanish influenza. No god created trains or sent man to the moon. No god has explained gravity, nor why there are so many species on the planet. Nor has your god created the very internet we now use to discuss this. It has always been scientific ingenuity and rational thought that has provided humanity with a higher standard of living, and allowed us to transform the world into what it is now in the 21st century.
I fail to see what your god has to offer anyone. Aside from some sort of "crutch" (as you put it) to comfort those who fear their own mortality to the extent that they need to invent fantasies to feel some sort of purpose in their own lives.
Dante
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 12:18:12 AM
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bolt.
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quote:
No god defeated polio, or the Spanish influenza. No god created trains or sent man to the moon. No god has explained gravity, nor why there are so many species on the planet. Nor has your god created the very internet we now use to discuss this. It has always been scientific ingenuity and rational thought that has provided humanity with a higher standard of living, and allowed us to transform the world into what it is now in the 21st century.
My God has defeated both disease and death. My God created both water and the laws by which it becomes steam for the locomotive. He created steel and coal and the physics of how they are formed into usefulness. My God made the moon and set it in its orbit. My God made gravity, the principles that govern it and every object that is effected by it. My God made every species on the planet, and gave them the capacity of reproduction and adaptation. My God created both electrons and the human mind. My God gifted humanity with scientific ingenuity, rational thought, and granted us the commission to explore understand and steward the world. There is nothing in the world that man has ever transformed from the form and existence that my God has spoken into being.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 1:44:26 AM
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RSchorne
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Sorry.
I undertood that he actually created disease and death as righteous retribution for Adam's sin.....
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 6:34:01 AM
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Strider33
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Bolt,
Well put.
I can't help being startled at the extent to which the discoveries and inventions of science and technology over the last 400 years have come from Christendom. It seems that Christianity stimulates rational inquiry instead of stifling it.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 7:54:37 AM
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creaton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: creaton
quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
And mis-interpretation of empirical evidence into a flawed scientific model is something that people often do... even if they include 'all' the evidence.
Right - but it takes ignoring all the evidence, or shoe-horning the evidence into some Scripture-friendly fantasy to conclude that the bible is 100% true.
I love it when atheists get their feathers all ruffled and try to lash out against the Bible!
I love it when bible-worshippers misinterpret and misrepresent what other people write.
quote:
Go ahead, creaton, prove something in the Bible wrong (besides the well known scribal errors, that is)! You would probably become the most famous person in the history of humanity! Go ahead. Something scientific, perhaps. This should be good.
Mustard seed is not the smallest seed.
Pi is not 3.
You cannot see all the kingdoms of the world from a mountain top.
You cannot cure leprosy via incantations, anointing with oil, and sacrificing pigeons.
quote:
Funny thing is, people (and demons) have been trying to disprove God's word since He first spoke creation into being, and none have succeeded yet
As long as you either ignore reality or engage in pathetic apologetics..quote:
But, go ahead and keep putting your faith in "science" that continually changes its mind, "science" that uncovers more questions every time it comes up with a new "answer".
I will.
I see absolutely nothing of benefit from a fundamentalist religious faith.
Science and scientists, at least, can admit when it/they is/are wrong.
The religionist simply conjures up all manner of excuses and copouots, and when those fail, they just claim that God works in 'mysterious ways.'
I'll take fallible, changing science, that at least wiorks toward an understanding of the real world over myth and superstition and cultural bias any day.
quote:
The rest of us dumb religious dummies will just keep limping along with our God crutch. See you at the finish line! Hopefully you have the same crutch by the time you get there
At least you admit it is a crutch.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 7:59:11 AM
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creaton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Strider33
Bolt,
Well put.
I can't help being startled at the extent to which the discoveries and inventions of science and technology over the last 400 years have come from Christendom. It seems that Christianity stimulates rational inquiry instead of stifling it.
Right...
I guess that is why our scientific journals are brimming with new and robust scientific work from creationists who use the bible as their source of both inspiration and ultimate truith.
I guess that is why Dean Kenyon's scientific outpur dropped to zero when he became a creationist. I guess that is why we are told that earthquakes and hurricanes and disease are part of God's plan by religionists, while those evil atheists with their 'changing science' are out there trying to understand and even priedict these phenomena.
But no, you are right about how Christendom opens minds to rational inquiry.
Except when such inquiry does not fall in line with Scripture, then suddenly that rational inquiry mutates into the dogma of the zealot.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 8:35:38 AM
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bolt.
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quote:
Sorry.
I undertood that he actually created disease and death as righteous retribution for Adam's sin.....
No problem. It's a common mistake to 'blame the messenger'.
What happened was that God created a system that worked -- without disease suffering or death, and it was based on the natural authority of God over all creation. When people threw off that authority by direct disobedience, the system that 'worked' was broken. God told Adam and Eve what it was that they broke and how it was going to effect them. By informing them of those things, He was not enacting retribution.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 11:59:57 AM
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tacitus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
quote:
Sorry.
I undertood that he actually created disease and death as righteous retribution for Adam's sin.....
No problem. It's a common mistake to 'blame the messenger'.
What happened was that God created a system that worked -- without disease suffering or death, and it was based on the natural authority of God over all creation.
The problem is that the system didn't work -- it failed in the very first generation of human beings, even before the second generation was born. Why would an omniscient God create a system that he knew would fail -- had to fail -- almost instantly? One that he knew even the very first two human beings fall from -- and not just a little but, but in what could not be a more calamitous way, condemning every single person for the rest of history to die and (in the vast majority of cases) end up with an eternity of pain, torture, and anguish in Hell.
It all sounds very reasonable to push all the blame on Adam and Eve, but if you accept the literal interpretation of Genesis as true, I don't see how you can escape the conclusion that they were set up by God to fail, right from the very start. (This is just one of the reasons why I believe Genesis is not a retelling of historical fact.)
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 12:41:45 PM
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creaton
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tacitus
It all sounds very reasonable to push all the blame on Adam and Eve, but if you accept the literal interpretation of Genesis as true, I don't see how you can escape the conclusion that they were set up by God to fail, right from the very start. (This is just one of the reasons why I believe Genesis is not a retelling of historical fact.)
Indeed.
Odd for a benevolent, omniscient, omnipotent God.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 12:42:20 PM
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bolt.
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We were set up by God to choose love and obedience. The choice to rebel is inherent in the ability to choose at all, so that possibility had to be accounted for and planned around from the very beginning. Which it was. Restoration is a free gift. By joining with Jesus through faith in His sacrifice, the Christian's spiritual status and moral capacity is distinct from the status and capacity of Adam/Eve.
Only God can make a plan that has space for free agents to cause catastrophe, then intervene, while maintaining the element of choice -- to make the end-state better than the beginning one! That's what I call good news.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 12:59:37 PM
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tacitus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
We were set up by God to choose love and obedience. The choice to rebel is inherent in the ability to choose at all, so that possibility had to be accounted for and planned around from the very beginning. Which it was. Restoration is a free gift. By joining with Jesus through faith in His sacrifice, the Christian's spiritual status and moral capacity is distinct from the status and capacity of Adam/Eve.
Only God can make a plan that has space for free agents to cause catastrophe, then intervene, while maintaining the element of choice -- to make the end-state better than the beginning one! That's what I call good news.
It wasn't a possibility -- it was an inevitability, one which, if the story is true, God deliberately engineered to happen within an extremely short period of time.
Also, why is choice so important? Can we choose to rebel once we get to Heaven? I haven't met a conservative theologian who says anyone can or does, ever, and yet that is for an eternity, not just 80 years or less, so it would seem that free will is not particularly important from an eternal prospect. (Or free will with the ability to rebel and reject God at least.)
And what choice did the uncountable millions of people who had never heard of Jesus before they died have? Why do they have to suffer for eternity (including millions of kids one would have to assume) for the mistake of two people they have never even heard of?
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 1:04:39 PM
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drmark
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quote:
It wasn't a possibility -- it was an inevitability, one which, if the story is true, God deliberately engineered to happen within an extremely short period of time.
Also, why is choice so important? Can we choose to rebel once we get to Heaven? I haven't met a conservative theologian who says anyone can or does, ever, and yet that is for an eternity, not just 80 years or less, so it would seem that free will is not particularly important from an eternal prospect. (Or free will with the ability to rebel and reject God at least.)
And what choice did the uncountable millions of people who had never heard of Jesus before they died have? Why do they have to suffer for eternity (including millions of kids one would have to assume) for the mistake of two people they have never even heard of? I didn't realize you were such a closet Calvinist, tacitus! Would you be interested in sharing this doctrinal perspective on the Calvinism/Arminianism one-stop thread? I would love to show some of the supralapsarians there how worthless their theology really is!
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 1:16:48 PM
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bolt.
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I don't consider it to have been inevitable, though freedom resulting in eternal harmony might have been a slim hope, I suppose. God's choice to invent free agents was to 'engineer' both possibilities, not to lean to one or the other. I'm really not sure why you think that the time Adam and Eve spent before they chose disobedience was a short time, though.
Choice is inherent in love, and God is all about love -- the love chose by those who had the freedom to choose otherwise.
When we choose to place our faith in Jesus we choose His purity to be our own. By that choice we indicate our fundamental desire to never sin again. God honours that choice when we receive the kingdom of heaven, which includes no rebellion. That is a case of our freedom expressed ideally in eternity (which is non-time, not a long time).
Those who have no knowledge of Jesus must rely on the things of God that are clear in their lives, surroundings and conscience. Those things they are free to abide by or rebel against. If they choose rebellion, they are accountable for that.
If they choose to honour their Creator and seek His face, He will shepherd them as He chooses and judge them by Himself. I wouldn't begin to guess any cases where this principle might or might not apply. That's up to God, and I trust His judgement.
Kids are not morally culpable until they are of age to be morally responsible, at which point they are just like the rest of us.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 9:17:27 PM
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bolt.
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If you are asking why I judge YHWH is God, it is becasue I know Him. I know Him personally, as a person, in a person-to-person way -- and although that knowledge is limited by my intelect, I have no reason to mistrust His revelation in the slighest.
It is His revelation that rules out other 'gods', though there are certainly a variety of spiritual beings capable of being percieved as 'gods' and communicating with people.
If you are asking why you should judge YHWH to be God, there simply isn't any proof for it. No one will ever be able to provide it, and there is no sense in you continuing to ask for it. (Though there is evidence and confirmation that is more than sufficient for a person of open mind to at least be open to the possibility.)
I am simply trying to explain my understanding to you, since you seem interested in what it is and why people believe it. The "claim" is not "in question". I believe it and you are exploring it. I am helping you explore it.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 10:17:38 PM
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bolt.
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quote:
Yes But you understand why your claim of knowing him is unconvincing
I'm not trying to be convincing. I'm simply being honest. The Bible is a big part of my relationship with God. It daily builds my grasp of Him and my understanding. But my relationships is not understanding alone, and revelation is not simply information.
quote:
But Wouldn't you agree the creator of the universe would know how the universe formed. So unless you think that in fact the earth came before our sun and stars. Wouldn't this be an excellent reason to mistrust the claim the YHWH is actually a creator deity?
Yes, I think He knows how He made the universe. There are two plausible explanations, either of which I could readily believe:
One is that I don't personally understand the science behind the prevailing theory of stars-before-planets. I'm open to the possibility that it is a misunderstanding of observations with an generous amount of conjecture. So, I consider it entirely possible that the earth was formed before the stars, and that people are just in another one of their stupid phases about theories of outer space.
The other one is that I fully understand that the Genesis account is poetic, and that it is intended to be generally descriptive of the events while making a completely other point theologically. Because I consider the Bible 100% true in what it is communicating theologically, I am completely comfortable with it giving only a general scheme and and poetic detail points about creation events. I would probably expect that general scheme to be in chronological order, but it would not concern me deeply if God chose to communicate a big truth by presenting the details in a mis-matched way.
So, I'm content in my faith either way, and I don't feel the need to put my feet down on either answer.
Rest assured that God does accept and respect your honesty. I hope that Christians in your life do too. Having a non-100% assessment of Scripture does not make you an infidel. Perhaps it makes you a seeker. God is always found by those who faithfully seek Him.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/8/2010 11:38:51 PM
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Kath
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/9/2010 12:23:20 AM
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tacitus
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quote:
I don't consider it to have been inevitable, though freedom resulting in eternal harmony might have been a slim hope, I suppose. God's choice to invent free agents was to 'engineer' both possibilities, not to lean to one or the other. I'm really not sure why you think that the time Adam and Eve spent before they chose disobedience was a short time, though.
The problem is, in the light of perfect knowledge, there is no room for hope -- not even a slim hope. If you're watching a replay of the Canada vs USA Olympic Gold Medal game the day after you watched it live, you know that the Americans lost and will lose again in the reply, hoping that they won't is futile. Either God is not omniscient, or he knew exactly what would happen the moment time began to unfold.
[Urg -- I just remembered you're Canadian -- sorry about using that example -- Go Commonwealth!!  )
It doesn't really matter how much time may have elapsed before The Fall, a day or 1,000 years, it doesn't change the inevitability of the event, nor does it change things for the billions of people who came afterwards (assuming it really did happen, of course.)
quote:
Choice is inherent in love, and God is all about love -- the love chose by those who had the freedom to choose otherwise.
When we choose to place our faith in Jesus we choose His purity to be our own. By that choice we indicate our fundamental desire to never sin again. God honours that choice when we receive the kingdom of heaven, which includes no rebellion. That is a case of our freedom expressed ideally in eternity (which is non-time, not a long time).
]Those who have no knowledge of Jesus must rely on the things of God that are clear in their lives, surroundings and conscience. Those things they are free to abide by or rebel against. If they choose rebellion, they are accountable for that.
If they choose to honour their Creator and seek His face, He will shepherd them as He chooses and judge them by Himself. I wouldn't begin to guess any cases where this principle might or might not apply. That's up to God, and I trust His judgement.
Kids are not morally culpable until they are of age to be morally responsible, at which point they are just like the rest of us.
Well, I think there are major issues with all of this too, especially with the age of accountability, but I suspect I'm about to get a friendly clip around the ear'ole for straying too far off the topic of origins, so I'd better refrain from expostulating or expounding further on this thread.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/9/2010 12:28:24 AM
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tacitus
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quote:
I didn't realize you were such a closet Calvinist, tacitus! Would you be interested in sharing this doctrinal perspective on the Calvinism/Arminianism one-stop thread? I would love to show some of the supralapsarians there how worthless their theology really is!
LOL. I'm pretty sure I've never been called that before. And I am not ashamed to admit that I had to look up the word "supralapsarians" either.
I know enough about Calvinist to understand that there they have similar issues with certain aspects of the more traditional (mainstream?) doctrine of Salvation, but I assure you that I am no Calvinist, so I am afraid I will have to decline your invitation.
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/9/2010 1:44:02 AM
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Strider33
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bolt,
Well put, once again. You are saying what needed to be said.
God bless you!
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RE: What makes the Genesis creation and flood stories m... - 3/9/2010 2:59:24 PM
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Ohioman1972
Posts: 409
Joined: 8/20/2009
Status: offline
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Does this "why would God" or "myth and superstition" talk really belong in the science thread? Shouldn't this go to the philosophy thread?
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