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Even if they could of frozen at whatever level, don't you think God would of intervened in that? I mean He is God!

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The flood water would displace the atmosphere and push all of the air upwards. Air pressure at sea level during the flood (i.e. what we consider to be an altitude of 29Kft) would be more-or-less the same as air pressure is at sea level right now.

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ORIGINAL: steve7150

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The flood water would displace the atmosphere and push all of the air upwards. Air pressure at sea level during the flood (i.e. what we consider to be an altitude of 29Kft) would be more-or-less the same as air pressure is at sea level right now.

That's an interesting idea but i doubt the process would be as neat and tidy as you think. The breathable air for us varies from 5-11 miles in width so if the flood pushed water levels and air up by 5 miles much of our breathable air would be pushed into the stratesphere and lost. Thus i think the air pressure in the remaining air would dramatically change, i believe.

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ORIGINAL: steve7150

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Even if they could of frozen at whatever level, don't you think God would of intervened in that? I mean He is God!

Except the bible does'nt say that God kept them warm or provided oxygen or intervened in numerous other ways he would have had to in order for the animals of the world to actually survive together on an ark at 29,000 feet.

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ORIGINAL: Jhud


Well, that would be what I am trying to get at - which specific 'physiological attributes' do you think distinguish humans from Neanderthals? I mean you are making the claim, can you back it up?

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Once the Neanderthal nuclear DNA is fully sequenced it will provide conclusive proof on whether or not they were Human.

Would you like to place a bet on the result?

Actually, it is all but sequenced now, and I would challenge you to specify what genetics it has that make it 'non-human'.

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Except the bible does'nt say that God kept them warm or provided oxygen or intervened in numerous other ways he would have had to in order for the animals of the world to actually survive together on an ark at 29,000 feet.

So?
Does it really matter?
The Bible doesn't say alot of things about alot of stuff that really isn't that relevant.

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ORIGINAL: steve7150

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Except the bible does'nt say that God kept them warm or provided oxygen or intervened in numerous other ways he would have had to in order for the animals of the world to actually survive together on an ark at 29,000 feet.

So?
Does it really matter?
The Bible doesn't say alot of things about alot of stuff that really isn't that relevant.

But these would be astounding miracles to miraculously preserve animals for months with breathing air and other requirements. These types of miracles can not be just assumed if you want to accurately interpret the bible at least IMO.
Plus it is very relevant as to whether the flood is worldwide or regional.

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I don't need to back it up because people qualified to do so already have. That's why it has been classified as a separate species.

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The mitochondrial genome sequence include only a fraction of the information the nuclear genome sequence would provide. But even from that:

"Analysis of the new sequence confirms that the mitochondria of Neanderthals falls outside the variation found in humans today, offering no evidence of admixture between the two lineages although it remains a possibility. It also shows that the last common ancestor of Neanderthals and humans lived about 660,000 years ago, give or take 140,000 years."

As you asking me to interpret the sequence myself? If I was capable of doing that, do you think I would be waisting my time with discussions like this?

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ORIGINAL: iluvatar

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ORIGINAL: steve7150

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Except the bible does'nt say that God kept them warm or provided oxygen or intervened in numerous other ways he would have had to in order for the animals of the world to actually survive together on an ark at 29,000 feet.

So?
Does it really matter?
The Bible doesn't say alot of things about alot of stuff that really isn't that relevant.

But these would be astounding miracles to miraculously preserve animals for months with breathing air and other requirements. These types of miracles can not be just assumed if you want to accurately interpret the bible at least IMO.
Plus it is very relevant as to whether the flood is worldwide or regional.

Steve, you're not getting it. The only reason that air is thin, right now, at 29000' is because gravity concentrates most of the atmosphere below that. If the sea had risen 29000', the lower levels of the atmosphere would be displaced and pushed upwards. The ark would still have been floating at sea level, and the ambient air pressure would be the same as it was when they were on dry land.

Think of it this way - if you put a fish in an aquarium, it's fine. If you put it in a tank full of cooking oil, it dies. Now put a fish in an aquarium 1/2 full of water, and then fill the rest with cooking oil (oil floats, so it'll stay on top). If the fish stays in the bottom half, where the water is, he's fine. If he swims to the top half, he's in trouble. If he flops out of the top of the tank, he's in trouble.

Now take that aquarium and put it on your roof. What happens to the fish? Nothing, because he's still swimming in the bottom half of the tank, which is filled with water.

The flood didn't just take the ark (the fish) and raise it up 29000' in the air (putting the fish in the cooking oil or out of the tank completely); the flood raised EVERYTHING, including the atmosphere itself (putting the tank on your roof), so as far as those on the ark were concerned, there would have been no difference.

That said, I don't believe in a global flood, but not for the reason you gave.

-Dan.

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Whether you want to believe in Dan's annoying gas laws or not, Steve. The Creation models do not involve the flood rising to a level of 29,000 feet. The mountains were formed as a result of the flood in every credible flood model that I know of. A process known as Catastrophic Plate Tectonics. Rather than arguing with Dan on the behavior of air, perhaps you should argue against actual creationist theories.

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ORIGINAL: DanJames
Whether you want to believe in Dan's annoying gas laws or not, Steve. The Creation models do not involve the flood rising to a level of 29,000 feet. The mountains were formed as a result of the flood in every credible flood model that I know of. A process known as Catastrophic Plate Tectonics. Rather than arguing with Dan on the behavior of air, perhaps you should argue against actual creationist theories. http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_as_platetectonicsl/

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ORIGINAL: iluvatar

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ORIGINAL: DanJames
Whether you want to believe in Dan's annoying gas laws or not, Steve. The Creation models do not involve the flood rising to a level of 29,000 feet. The mountains were formed as a result of the flood in every credible flood model that I know of. A process known as Catastrophic Plate Tectonics. Rather than arguing with Dan on the behavior of air, perhaps you should argue against actual creationist theories. http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_as_platetectonicsl/

Catastrophic Plate Tectonics is a load of nonsense. A while back, a poster on here by the name of 'bede' went through the RATE groups claims and found some pretty alarming consequences of their theories that are not remotely supported by the evidence (e.g. the Atlantic ocean being a giant volcanic caldera). Do a search for it, it was pretty interesting.

-Dan.

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ORIGINAL: steve7150

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Whether you want to believe in Dan's annoying gas laws or not, Steve. The Creation models do not involve the flood rising to a level of 29,000 feet. The mountains were formed as a result of the flood in every credible flood model that I know of. A process known as Catastrophic Plate Tectonics. Rather than arguing with Dan on the behavior of air, perhaps you should argue against actual creationist theories.

I'm an old earther friend so unless you can show that Mt Everest was created from the flood in scripture and not speculation i'm not buying it. But thanks for your clever remarks, Kent Hovind would be proud.

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ORIGINAL: DanJames
Dan, I know you think that Catastrophic Plate Tectonics is a load of nonsense. I'm just saying that, rather than Steve arguing with you about what air pressure would be like at 29,000 feet above sea level when sea level is 29,000 feet above sea level, I was suggesting that he start concentrating his arguments on countering ACTUAL creationist arguments. You gotta admit, that would be more worth all of our time.

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ORIGINAL: iluvatar
The flood water would displace the atmosphere and push all of the air upwards. Air pressure at sea level during the flood (i.e. what we consider to be an altitude of 29Kft) would be more-or-less the same as air pressure is at sea level right now.

-Dan.

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ORIGINAL: mikejonesoftn

I never understood when we talk "Noah's Ark, and the Flood" people try to use science/math to say that the flood happened this way or that way.
I mean we are talking GOD here. I wouldn't doubt one bit that God caused the waters to flood to cover the mountain tops even if it seemed to be impossible the way the bible describes it.

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ORIGINAL: hackenslash

Credible flood models? I've never heard anything so ridiculous. There was no global flood.

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ORIGINAL: archaeologist2

i just say that the neanderthals were either the remains of the pre-flood civilization or they were partof the disporia from babel. knowing how fallible the secular dating systems are i dismiss their conclusions as they are not dealing with a lot of evidence here. last i heard there were only about 400 partial skeletons they had discovered and used.

the secular world is greaton taking partial keletons and building a grandiose theory based upon the little they find. recntly they said they discovered the fossil of a walking fish, turned out the fossil was only half complete--the half without the 'legs'.

then in the book, The First Humans by Ann Gibbons, we get a great view of how little anthropologists find and use to construct their theories. usually toe bones, jaw bones, teeth but rarely are there complete skeletons. they are over joyed just to find a thigh bone. so if you look to the secular experts for any information--be careful for they do not have the truth and make things up as they go.

there is only 1 race of people thus the neanderthals were descendants of adam, just where they fit in we will probably never know.