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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/17/2008 1:00:24 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: robto
Tiktaalik is one of the famous, recently-discovered species that seems to be transitional between fish and land animals. Now there's new evidence of its transitional character.
Hmmm... I'm going to have to find some way to reinterprete or reject this settled science so that I can hold fast to my fundamentalist beliefs.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/17/2008 5:36:50 PM
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Jhud
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This is too little too late.
As we know the genetic capability for limbs existed long before Tiktaalik is thought to have shown up, the presumed existence of something limb-like in this organism is no more an evolutionary transition than is the opening of an application on my computer.
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I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/18/2008 4:40:47 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
This is too little too late.
As we know the genetic capability for limbs existed long before Tiktaalik is thought to have shown up, the presumed existence of something limb-like in this organism is no more an evolutionary transition than is the opening of an application on my computer.
I think I understand what you mean, but perhaps you could expound on that a bit.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/18/2008 7:38:13 PM
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unclemonkey
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It just makes me wonder why we are making assumptions about fossils when we have a living transitional to study.
I am a little fuzzy on the details though. Could someone please refresh me on what the platypus is transitioning from and to?
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/19/2008 6:02:14 AM
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Real_Solitude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
It just makes me wonder why we are making assumptions about fossils when we have a living transitional to study.
I am a little fuzzy on the details though. Could someone please refresh me on what the platypus is transitioning from and to?
All living creatures are 'transitional' from some species, and to another. (Assuming the species survives long enough to speciate).
Further, evolution has no 'goal' other than the survival of a species. The platypus will transition into whatever is required for it to survive in future environments, or it will go extinct. (It will not do this, of course, until selection pressures to survive in those environments are present.) If its current form is suited to that environment, it will not transition, because there won't be section pressure to do so.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/19/2008 8:38:51 AM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:Real_Solitudequote:
All living creatures are 'transitional' from some species, and to another.
Which is nothing more than an assumption.
quote:
If its current form is suited to that environment, it will not transition, because there won't be section pressure to do so.
So it may or may not continue transitioning? You predict that someday its descendents won’t be platypus’ unless they always remain platypus’. Now there is a prediction no one can argue with.
Since, according to your post, it wasn’t always a platypus then what was it before?
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/19/2008 2:41:48 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:Jhudquote:
Well, since the platypus has apparently changed little since the time of the dinosaurs, it would appear that some animals are more transitional than others.
WOW! For over 65 million years the platypus hasn’t faced sufficient environmental pressures to foster evolutionary change?!?
I never realized Australia’s ecosystem was so stable.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/19/2008 6:40:20 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
WOW! For over 65 million years the platypus hasn’t faced sufficient environmental pressures to foster evolutionary change?!?
I never realized Australia’s ecosystem was so stable.
Maybe their duckbill is capable of deflecting the effects of the metorite that killed off the dinosaurs.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/19/2008 7:26:48 PM
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Real_Solitude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
So it may or may not continue transitioning? You predict that someday its descendents won’t be platypus’ unless they always remain platypus’. Now there is a prediction no one can argue with.
Since, according to your post, it wasn’t always a platypus then what was it before?
Correct, except you're being obscurantist.
If the environment changes in such a way that there is selection pressure to evolve to fit the new environment, one of two things will happen.
-The platypus will die out.
-The platypus will evolve to suit the new environment.
If the environment does not change, or the changes to not effect the platypus in an significant way, then it will likely not speciate.
The fossil record for the platypus is relatively incomplete. The genetic evidence places it as one of the earliest branching of the mammalian tree. The mammalian tree seems to have branched into the monotremes on one side, and all other mammals on the other.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/19/2008 9:45:55 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Correct, except you're being obscurantist.
If the environment changes in such a way that there is selection pressure to evolve to fit the new environment, one of two things will happen.
-The platypus will die out.
-The platypus will evolve to suit the new environment.
If the environment does not change, or the changes to not effect the platypus in an significant way, then it will likely not speciate.
The fossil record for the platypus is relatively incomplete. The genetic evidence places it as one of the earliest branching of the mammalian tree. The mammalian tree seems to have branched into the monotremes on one side, and all other mammals on the other.
Yes, and considering that it has been around relatively unchanged for all that time we either have to believe no such selection pressure occured in all that time (while radically altering a myriad of other life forms) or it simply didn't evolve in response to those changes.
Which one do you suppose it might be?
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/19/2008 10:49:25 PM
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Bettawrekonize
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Maybe their duckbill is capable of deflecting the effects of the metorite that killed off the dinosaurs.
Careful, something like this might become the consensus of the secular community.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/20/2008 9:47:39 AM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL: Real_Solitude quote:
quote:
Since, according to your post, it wasn’t always a platypus then what was it before? The fossil record for the platypus is relatively incomplete… The mammalian tree seems to have…
Thanks for that succinct response to my question. How could I be so silly as to not realize that it evolved from something(maybe reptilian or maybe avian) to what it has been for the last 65million+years and someday it will get back in the grove and evolve into something completely different.
How could anyone doubt such well established science?
quote:
If the environment does not change, or the changes to not effect the platypus in an significant way, then it will likely not speciate.
I hope you don’t mind me repeating myself. “WOW! For over 65 million years the platypus hasn’t faced sufficient environmental pressures to foster evolutionary change?!?
I never realized Australia’s ecosystem was so stable.”
But if you say so, I recon the scientific thing to do is to just take your word for it.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/20/2008 9:49:32 AM
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unclemonkey
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ORGINAL:Jhudquote:
Which one do you suppose it might be?
Can I choose "none of the above"?
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/20/2008 9:58:59 AM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:DanJamesquote:
Hmmm... I'm going to have to find some way to reinterprete or reject this settled science so that I can hold fast to my fundamentalist beliefs.
AIG to the rescue.
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"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/20/2008 3:15:07 PM
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Real_Solitude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
If the environment does not change, or the changes to not effect the platypus in an significant way, then it will likely not speciate.
I hope you don’t mind me repeating myself. “WOW! For over 65 million years the platypus hasn’t faced sufficient environmental pressures to foster evolutionary change?!?
I never realized Australia’s ecosystem was so stable.”
But if you say so, I recon the scientific thing to do is to just take your word for it.
The ecosystem doesn't have to be terribly stable. The platypus is surprisingly well adapted for a wide range of temperatures. They range from cold areas such as the Australian alps, to tropical rain forests.
It can eat pretty much any small aquatic food; from various worms and larvae to things like shrimp and crawfish.
They have relatively few natural predators, so their mortality rate is low, and they mate for roughly 7 of their eleven years, a breeding cycle longer than many animals.
It also occupies a rather unique niche in the Australian ecosystem, so there isn't much competition for the various resources the platypus needs to survive.
Aside from major geological upheaval that would allow in competition or new predators, or introduction of foreign predators and competition due to human influence, there's not much that can phase such a durable creature.
This isn't to mention that the oldest known modern platypus fossil is 100,000 years old. This places it at less than half of the age of the estimated branching of humanity from the chimpanzees and bonobos. The creature that the platypus most likely evolved from, Steropodon, was quite platypus-like, but was a bit larger, and had teeth as well.
So, no, the platypus isn't immune to evolutionary forces. I has changed in the 65my that you quoted. It hasn't changed as much as many other groups of animals due to it's unique position and resilience, but it has undergone adaptation that has (apparently) kept it alive up til today.
_____________________________
"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/20/2008 3:18:19 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
This isn't to mention that the oldest known modern platypus fossil is 100,000 years old. This places it at less than half of the age of the estimated branching of humanity from the chimpanzees and bonobos. The creature that the platypus most likely evolved from, Steropodon, was quite platypus-like, but was a bit larger, and had teeth as well.
This is a bit misleading; the oldest known recognizable platypus is said to date from the time of the dinosaurs; there is no reason to claim it wasn't a 'modern' platypus other than as a matter of semantics.
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Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/20/2008 3:29:48 PM
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GHitch
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Good old Tik, back as a transitional huh.
Utter nonsense.
1. You have to assume neo-Darwinian evol. is true from the start to even believe in transitionals and that before having any proof that such a thing exists
2. If Darwinism were true we should have billions of no longer missing links, showing smooth transitions to the estimated 13+ million extant species on earth - we don't
3. The entire fish-to-tetrapod transition is supposed to have occurred in 20 Ma, but other salamanders, according to Shubin himself (one of the Tik talkers), have remained unchanged for far longer :
quote:
‘Despite its Bathonian age, the new cryptobranchid [salamander] shows extraordinary morphological similarity to its living relatives. This similarity underscores the stasis [no change] within salamander anatomical evolution. Indeed, extant cryptobranchid salamanders can be regarded as living fossils whose structures have remained little changed for over 160 million years.’
4 The only real transitionals that exist remain within the family, there are simply no smooth transitions from frog to prince in spite of all the claims, just so stories and wishful thinking of the materialists
Suggest you read HERE to get a feeling for how Dawinists work retroactively proclaiming absolute proofs then admitting weaknesses of their pretended transitionals.
I mean come on, have you seen what they claim is the ancestor of the whale! A large rodent-like furry creature that turned into a huge sea going whale whose heart is bigger than the so-called ancestor itself and spews water out of its top!! The ancestor is of an order of hooved mammals of the subclass Eutheria (including pigs and peccaries and hippopotami and members of the suborder Ruminantia) having an even number of functional toes. See here
Unbelievably gullible these Darwinists. They'll believe anything as long as intelligence or God aren't involved - which is suspicious indeed in and of itself.
dinos to birds, pigs to whales and frogs to princes - that's Darwinism in a nut shell.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/20/2008 8:06:40 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:Jhudquote:
there is no reason to claim it wasn't a 'modern' platypus other than as a matter of semantics.
Sure there is. Now that I no longer have teeth I am not the man I used to be. Isn't that evolution in action?
Besides, without making such unjustifiable distinctions the so-so stories just don't have the same impact. Those pseudo-distinctions are too good of brainwashing tools not to use them.
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/21/2008 3:39:42 AM
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Real_Solitude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:Jhudquote:
there is no reason to claim it wasn't a 'modern' platypus other than as a matter of semantics.
Sure there is. Now that I no longer have teeth I am not the man I used to be. Isn't that evolution in action?
It's easy to remove a specific body part from an individual. This is a single instance of physiological change.
To remove a feature from an entire species requires some shift in genetics that produces such a change in the physiology of the species.
The difference between containing teeth and lacking them is large enough to warrant a different species name.
The same would undoubtedly be true if we found a breed of wild, toothed chickens.
_____________________________
"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/21/2008 9:56:03 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7620
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quote:
It's easy to remove a specific body part from an individual. This is a single instance of physiological change.
To remove a feature from an entire species requires some shift in genetics that produces such a change in the physiology of the species.
The difference between containing teeth and lacking them is large enough to warrant a different species name.
The same would undoubtedly be true if we found a breed of wild, toothed chickens.
Actually, you can induce the growth of teeth in chickens. They are called Talpids.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/21/2008 2:29:08 PM
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robto
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
Good old Tik, back as a transitional huh.
Utter nonsense.
1. You have to assume neo-Darwinian evol. is true from the start to even believe in transitionals and that before having any proof that such a thing exists
???
A theory, if it is worth anything, makes predictions. Those predictions are then tested against the available evidence. The theory of evolution predicts the existence of species with transitional characteristics. The available evidence is primarily morphological characteristics of skeletons, since soft tissues usually don't fossilize. A transitional feature is one that lies between the characteristics of two similar species.
Tiktaalik shows evidence of head mobility that is between the mobility of fish and that of later land animals. That makes it a transitional feature. You don't have to believe that Tiktaalik is descended from fish, or ancestral to tetrapods, for that to be true. The transitional characteristic is there no matter what the relationships are.
quote:
2. If Darwinism were true we should have billions of no longer missing links, showing smooth transitions to the estimated 13+ million extant species on earth - we don't
Um - "billions"? How many fossils do you think there are in existence - total?
Darwinism does not predict, or require, smooth transitions in the fossil record. Learn something about the theory of punctuated equilibrium.
quote:
3. The entire fish-to-tetrapod transition is supposed to have occurred in 20 Ma, but other salamanders, according to Shubin himself (one of the Tik talkers), have remained unchanged for far longer :
There is no requirement that all animals evolve at the same rate.
quote:
4 The only real transitionals that exist remain within the family, there are simply no smooth transitions from frog to prince in spite of all the claims, just so stories and wishful thinking of the materialists
Suggest you read HERE to get a feeling for how Dawinists work retroactively proclaiming absolute proofs then admitting weaknesses of their pretended transitionals.
I mean come on, have you seen what they claim is the ancestor of the whale! A large rodent-like furry creature that turned into a huge sea going whale whose heart is bigger than the so-called ancestor itself and spews water out of its top!! The ancestor is of an order of hooved mammals of the subclass Eutheria (including pigs and peccaries and hippopotami and members of the suborder Ruminantia) having an even number of functional toes. See here
Unbelievably gullible these Darwinists. They'll believe anything as long as intelligence or God aren't involved - which is suspicious indeed in and of itself.
dinos to birds, pigs to whales and frogs to princes - that's Darwinism in a nut shell.
Classic example of the fallacy known as the appeal to ridicule.
Is that all you've got?
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The Theory of Almost Everything: Everything you always wanted to know about elementary particles but were afraid to ask
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/21/2008 6:29:37 PM
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Real_Solitude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Actually, you can induce the growth of teeth in chickens. They are called Talpids.
Indeed, hence my usage of the word 'wild'.
While captive toothed chickens, or chickens altered to express their genes for teeth, are thought to have this due to atavisms, if we found a groups of wild chickens with this trait, living in some ecological niche that required this characteristic, they would undoubtedly be classified as a separate species (or at lease sub-species.)
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"Instead of feeling alone in a group its better to have real solitude all by yourself."
~Faye Valentine
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RE: More transitional features of Tiktaalik - 10/21/2008 8:01:02 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:Real_Solitudequote:
The difference between containing teeth and lacking them is large enough to warrant a different species name.
Not if they can still interbreed.
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Visit my home church.
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