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What was happening before the creation? - 11/3/2008 4:04:07 PM
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den_jesus
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I'm still wondering...
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/3/2008 4:41:35 PM
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catfighter
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There was no "before", as "before" implies the existence of time and time does not exist outside of the universe.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/3/2008 5:01:14 PM
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jmjphe
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I think this is where logical limits of our brains cut off.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/3/2008 11:21:17 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7618
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quote:
There was no "before", as "before" implies the existence of time and time does not exist outside of the universe.
This is correct; God just always is.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 8:57:49 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
There was no "before", as "before" implies the existence of time and time does not exist outside of the universe.
How do we know this? How do we know that time is even a creation?
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 9:09:31 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
How do we know this? How do we know that time is even a creation?
The same way that anyone "knows" that anything is a creation: you take it on faith.
Personally, I don't believe in the human concept of time. If there really is such a thing as the past or the future, then there is no free will: it's all predetermined by the very existence of so-called past and future realities.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 10:28:26 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: den_jesus
I'm still wondering...
Oh, I almost forgot the OP:
The creator was getting his real estate license before he decided to create his own real estate.
That's just a guess . . .
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 10:31:53 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
The same way that anyone "knows" that anything is a creation: you take it on faith.
Personally, I don't believe in the human concept of time. If there really is such a thing as the past or the future, then there is no free will: it's all predetermined by the very existence of so-called past and future realities
I'm not trying to be cute but how do we know time is an "anything" but simply a term describing a sequential passing of events?
And although i'm not Calvinist i don't see free will as a birthright just a tool God uses when it's beneficial.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 11:43:37 AM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
I'm not trying to be cute but how do we know time is an "anything" but simply a term describing a sequential passing of events?
I agree, except with your use of the word "sequential;" it still connotes the idea of reality moving along in measurable portions like the frames of a movie (and be aware that even the concept of a sequence of events playing themselves out in a movie is itself an illusion). Time is simply a cognitive tool that humans invented to conceptualize change in an organized fashion.
Time is useful, but it isn't real.
quote:
And although i'm not Calvinist i don't see free will as a birthright just a tool God uses when it's beneficial.
I'm not a Calvinist, either. I have come to realize that if free will exists, then time cannot exist, for time consists of the past and the future existing along with the present. If reality really exists is all three tenses, then we have no control over the outcome of events that are already played out on three levels.
Calvin realized that free will flies in the face of God's sovereign will, his omniscience, and his omnipotence; it also flies in the face of the concept of time.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 1:08:20 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
I'm not a Calvinist, either. I have come to realize that if free will exists, then time cannot exist, for time consists of the past and the future existing along with the present. If reality really exists is all three tenses, then we have no control over the outcome of events that are already played out on three levels.
There is such a belief which says God is omniscient, time is real yet so is free will because the future is simply not knowable because it has'nt happened yet therefore it does not exist. So although God is omniscient even he can not know something that is unknowable if men truly have free will. It's called Open Theism.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 1:21:52 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Time is useful, but it isn't real.
I'm not sure how you can say time isn't real.
We have devices -- clocks -- that can accurately measure time. We have the General Theory of Relativity that accurately predicts how clocks measure time.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 1:33:55 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7618
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
I'm not sure how you can say time isn't real.
We have devices -- clocks -- that can accurately measure time. We have the General Theory of Relativity that accurately predicts how clocks measure time.
This is true, but if I go with dblthnk's theory, I can sleep in and have a legitimate excuse.
_____________________________
Jack
I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else.
- C.S. Lewis
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 1:38:55 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I'm not sure how you can say time isn't real.
We have devices -- clocks -- that can accurately measure time. We have the General Theory of Relativity that accurately predicts how clocks measure time.
This is true, but if I go with dblthnk's theory, I can sleep in and have a legitimate excuse.
Yeah. Lemme know how that works out for you...
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 1:42:33 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
Time is useful, but it isn't real.
I'm not sure how you can say time isn't real.
We have devices -- clocks -- that can accurately measure time. We have the General Theory of Relativity that accurately predicts how clocks measure time.
Not only that, but hasn't time been experimentally demonstrated to be alterable to a measurable degree? Time is more substantive than just a means of describing what already happened and will happen. You can predict to a degree what will happen to time as your speed approaches light speed.
Which brings me to the OP. Without matter and space there is no time. Before the universe (space) and the celestial bodies (matter) were created there was no time. So how long would God have had to wait for his real estate license under those conditions?
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 4:14:57 PM
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catfighter
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
There was no "before", as "before" implies the existence of time and time does not exist outside of the universe.
How do we know this? How do we know that time is even a creation?
For the same reason we know space is something, not nothing.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/4/2008 7:06:53 PM
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1dblthnk02
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
There is such a belief which says God is omniscient, time is real yet so is free will because the future is simply not knowable because it has'nt happened yet therefore it does not exist.
But such a belief would have to disregard the parts of the bible (such as John's revelation) which claim to have foreseen future events.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
I'm not sure how you can say time isn't real.
We have devices -- clocks -- that can accurately measure time. We have the General Theory of Relativity that accurately predicts how clocks measure time.
We also have yardsticks and metersticks that accurately measure inches and centimeters: does this mean that inches and centimeters are the embodiment of a physical law of some kind?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
This is true, but if I go with dblthnk's theory, I can sleep in and have a legitimate excuse.
I suppose this is true. I once had a friend who told me, "I eat when I'm hungry, wash when I'm dirty, and sleep when I'm sleepy. I don't need a clock to tell me when it's time for something."
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Not only that, but hasn't time been experimentally demonstrated to be alterable to a measurable degree? Time is more substantive than just a means of describing what already happened and will happen. You can predict to a degree what will happen to time as your speed approaches light speed.
I think that these theories predict alterations in our perception of our concept of time, not the actual displacement of an objective quantity.
But I could be wrong . . .
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/5/2008 12:08:53 AM
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Veritas
Posts: 527
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
I'm not sure how you can say time isn't real.
We have devices -- clocks -- that can accurately measure time. We have the General Theory of Relativity that accurately predicts how clocks measure time.
We also have yardsticks and metersticks that accurately measure inches and centimeters: does this mean that inches and centimeters are the embodiment of a physical law of some kind?
<...>
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Not only that, but hasn't time been experimentally demonstrated to be alterable to a measurable degree? Time is more substantive than just a means of describing what already happened and will happen. You can predict to a degree what will happen to time as your speed approaches light speed.
I think that these theories predict alterations in our perception of our concept of time, not the actual displacement of an objective quantity.
But I could be wrong . . .
I don't know what you mean by the "embodiment of a physical law of some kind". What does that even mean?
Clocks and yardsticks are physical objects. Their measurements are objective. It is not our subjective perception of time that is altered. Space and time are altered in ways that are predicted by Relativity. The Relativity explains observations. Its predictions have been tested it remains the best theory of space-time and gravity that we have. It is supported by objective measurements.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/5/2008 5:39:23 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
I'm not sure how you can say time isn't real.
We have devices -- clocks -- that can accurately measure time. We have the General Theory of Relativity that accurately predicts how clocks measure time.
We also have yardsticks and metersticks that accurately measure inches and centimeters: does this mean that inches and centimeters are the embodiment of a physical law of some kind?
<...>
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Not only that, but hasn't time been experimentally demonstrated to be alterable to a measurable degree? Time is more substantive than just a means of describing what already happened and will happen. You can predict to a degree what will happen to time as your speed approaches light speed.
I think that these theories predict alterations in our perception of our concept of time, not the actual displacement of an objective quantity.
But I could be wrong . . .
I don't know what you mean by the "embodiment of a physical law of some kind". What does that even mean?
Clocks and yardsticks are physical objects. Their measurements are objective. It is not our subjective perception of time that is altered. Space and time are altered in ways that are predicted by Relativity. The Relativity explains observations. Its predictions have been tested it remains the best theory of space-time and gravity that we have. It is supported by objective measurements.
I agree. Time exists and is as substantive, predictable, and describable as space and matter. In fact, matter, space, and time seem to be interrelated to a degree so that altering one alters all three. Space and time are bent by the presence of lots of matter. Time is altered by moving matter quickly through space. It therefore stands to reason that by creating space and matter, God also created time. So nyah. :p
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/5/2008 6:09:24 PM
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Mallow7
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I think God was just by himself without form in infinite bliss , or maybe a more subtle world existed that wasn't composed of gross matter in a different universe that we cant remember. Maybe we were all living in the astral or casual body or some type of body because it is quite possible that astral , casual and physical body were created around the same time , but it was most likely more subtle and peaceful.
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/5/2008 7:10:50 PM
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1dblthnk02
Posts: 754
Joined: 3/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
I don't know what you mean by the "embodiment of a physical law of some kind". What does that even mean?
I mean that inches and centimeters are human inventions. Humans did not discover these units in nature, rather they invented them.
quote:
Clocks and yardsticks are physical objects. Their measurements are objective.
Wrong. What natural law determined the length of an inch, or a centimeter, or any other unit of lenth for that matter?
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Time exists and is as substantive, predictable, and describable as space and matter.
Again, what natural law determined the length of a second, a minute, or an hour? If time exists as some sort of subtantive quantity, then what exactly is it?
Furthermore, if time exists in the present, then does it not also exist in the past and in the future?
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/5/2008 7:26:05 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
I don't know what you mean by the "embodiment of a physical law of some kind". What does that even mean?
I mean that inches and centimeters are human inventions. Humans did not discover these units in nature, rather they invented them.
quote:
Clocks and yardsticks are physical objects. Their measurements are objective.
Wrong. What natural law determined the length of an inch, or a centimeter, or any other unit of lenth for that matter?
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Time exists and is as substantive, predictable, and describable as space and matter.
Again, what natural law determined the length of a second, a minute, or an hour? If time exists as some sort of subtantive quantity, then what exactly is it?
Furthermore, if time exists in the present, then does it not also exist in the past and in the future?
Before we go googling the history of how we measure time, how does this demonstrate that time isn't real?
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/5/2008 8:23:25 PM
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Veritas
Posts: 527
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1dblthnk02
quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
I don't know what you mean by the "embodiment of a physical law of some kind". What does that even mean?
I mean that inches and centimeters are human inventions. Humans did not discover these units in nature, rather they invented them.
quote:
Clocks and yardsticks are physical objects. Their measurements are objective.
Wrong. What natural law determined the length of an inch, or a centimeter, or any other unit of lenth for that matter?
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Time exists and is as substantive, predictable, and describable as space and matter.
Again, what natural law determined the length of a second, a minute, or an hour? If time exists as some sort of subtantive quantity, then what exactly is it?
Furthermore, if time exists in the present, then does it not also exist in the past and in the future?
Yes, the units we choose to use are human inventions and are arbitrary. But, once the units are chosen, the relationships based on measurements are objective. If one distance is twice as long another measured in inches, it will be twice as long measured in any other unit. The laws of physics, including the theory of relativity do not depend on the particular units of measure. Physics tells us the relationships between the measurements. The relationships between the measurements do not depend on the units. For example, the formula, F = ma holds no matter what units are used to measure the quantities.
Can you give us an example of a natural law, and how it can be applied?
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RE: What was happening before the creation? - 11/6/2008 6:58:09 PM
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mikejonesoftn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: den_jesus
I'm still wondering...
lol. I think we lost the OP.
Anyway, his question is "What was happening before the creation?"
Even though we do not know the answer. I am assuming it's much bigger than the discussion of time. I myself, truly believe that God is the creator of EVERYTHING. With that being said, the Bible only really truly tells us about three places, Heaven-Earth-and Hell. If you believe just a little of what science tell us, that there are 7 other planets other than Earth. The bible starts with the creation of Earth and never speaks of any other "planets." There's proof that matter exist elsewhere outside of Earth so it's safe to say "time" exist on other planets.
So, what was going on before the creation of Earth? Lol, know one knows at all. It does make you wonder what planets were created first. Genesis tell us that God said “Let there be light”; and there was light." , and it also says "Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness." - , That sort of makes me think the Earth was the very first planet, but the other planets could have exist without any light at all.
I'm rambling, but I'm just trying to give posters an idea of what could have been happening before the "creation"
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