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What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/4/2008 3:38:27 PM
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SophiesLadder
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so that he can adequately engage atheists and non-believers on issues of intelligent design and evolution?
I am thinking not so much of spiritual qualities but material, references, links, etc that can be posted to a website.
I'm trying to collect this info on my site (www.sophiesladder.com) and would appreciate your input.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/5/2008 4:10:50 PM
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drmark
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It would help to know better the purpose of your "engaging atheists and non-believers", SL. Are you looking for scientific information to discuss relevant to their worldview versus ours or more in line with philosophical and apologetic issues which relate to the origins debate?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/6/2008 10:04:36 AM
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SophiesLadder
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My purpose would be to support an unbiased format in which both sides get a fair hearing. The attempt is to draw them (the atheist and non-believer) in with fairness. Admittedly, I'm wondering if this is practically possible, so I've been trying to decide if I should be a purely Christian resource.
To that end, I'm looking for both the scientific AND the philosophical / theological information, i.e., information that both supports intelligent design and philosophical argument (argument from design, cosmological design, etc.). I'm also wondering if it's beneficial to sort of list the arguments that atheists use and provide rebuttals - so that the Christian can be armed.
Thanks for the reply.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/6/2008 12:12:42 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3091
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quote:
My purpose would be to support an unbiased format in which both sides get a fair hearing. Well, SL, I personally think your "purpose" is unachievable. There will always be insurmountable bias in the worldview assumptions that underlie origins science. In over two years of posting on these S&O threads, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of agno-atheists that will even consider the possibility they hold biased worldview differences, much less admit to any!
quote:
The attempt is to draw them (the atheist and non-believer) in with fairness. Admittedly, I'm wondering if this is practically possible, so I've been trying to decide if I should be a purely Christian resource. This is an admirable (and Scriptural) attitude but of course you realize that they will not reciprocate your "fairness". Are you prepared for the personal attacks, derision, and occasional outright hostility that an unmonitored website may generate? Thank goodness we have the moderators here to identify and eliminate such abuse.
quote:
To that end, I'm looking for both the scientific AND the philosophical / theological information, i.e., information that both supports intelligent design and philosophical argument (argument from design, cosmological design, etc.). Are you familiar with the major creationist websites such as answersingenesis.org, icr.org, and creationontheweb.com? These and many others have immense resources if you wish to explore them.
quote:
I'm also wondering if it's beneficial to sort of list the arguments that atheists use and provide rebuttals - so that the Christian can be armed. Once again, I doubt many atheists care about Christian rebuttals to their faith-based belief system. However, I know there are some websites out there with that goal in mind. Maybe you could get some ideas from them:
Ex-Atheist.com
The Irrational Atheist
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/6/2008 12:50:55 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
In over two years of posting on these S&O threads, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of agno-atheists that will even consider the possibility they hold biased worldview differences, much less admit to any!
I cheerfully admit that you and I have differences in worldview bias. You assume that the Bible is infallible (and therefore there is no evidence that contradicts it) and I do not.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/6/2008 4:13:03 PM
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SophiesLadder
Posts: 48
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drmark,
Thanks for your input. I'm not worried about the abuse - I engage on Debunking Christianity and some other atheist blogs fairly frequently. But you seem to be saying that there is no (or few) true seeker(s) of the truth, we all come with our own set of biases and prejudices. And that may well be the case. If it is, then I would forego any balanced approach and simply lend support to Christianity. Then my question becomes, Are there any things that the existing websites such as those you have cited are lacking, that, if provided, may lend greater support to the Christian?
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/6/2008 5:53:54 PM
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cow451
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
drmark,
Thanks for your input. I'm not worried about the abuse - I engage on Debunking Christianity and some other atheist blogs fairly frequently. But you seem to be saying that there is no (or few) true seeker(s) of the truth, we all come with our own set of biases and prejudices. And that may well be the case. If it is, then I would forego any balanced approach and simply lend support to Christianity. Then my question becomes, Are there any things that the existing websites such as those you have cited are lacking, that, if provided, may lend greater support to the Christian?
Your person witness (i.e., the way you live) will lend greater support than any of the Creation so-called Science websites IMHO.
_____________________________
Nobody ever heard of Acid Rain before we sent people into space.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/7/2008 10:38:14 AM
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drmark
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Very rarely do I agree with cow - this is one of those rare moments! Electronic media is pretty much worthless in my opinion for developing an effective apologetic witness other than to lay out the philosophical foundations for a reasoned faith.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/7/2008 11:43:26 AM
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SophiesLadder
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I don't disagree with either of you. But what then is the purpose of the Crosswalk Theology Forum?
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/7/2008 12:14:28 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
I don't disagree with either of you. But what then is the purpose of the Crosswalk Theology Forum?
Typically when I research a certain topic, I do a Google Scholar search to find primary source material on the topic. This doesn't always provide the information that I want, so I go to something like a Wikkipedia search on the topic and see if they perchance have a reference to some primary source material. If your website will try to draw the layman, then what help will it be. Lay persons never reach a conclusion because "I'm not an expert at (such and such), but here's what I believe." We are constantly reaching the ends of our knowledge base on this forum, yet nobody leaves convinced. However, if your aim is to draw the expert, then who would come? Very few evolutionary scientists with PhD's in their fields actually take the debate seriously. And those who hold to creation, well they might contribute, but then we're all busy.
Where then should the material come from?
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/7/2008 12:29:33 PM
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SophiesLadder
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It would have to present new information as it arises - either scientific, philosophical or theological. It would do the work of scouring the web for that information, so the layman would not have to.
I'm a layman (well, I think I am - my background is chemical engineering, but I don't think that makes me an expert in philosophy or theology) but believe I keep myself well read, and up on the issues. I would be reaching out to Christian intent on doing the same thing.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/9/2008 11:50:39 PM
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ot4christ
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As a former atheist/agnostic, I can testify that even strongly ingrained beliefs can change. I used to enjoy debating Christians because most who I encountered were very poorly prepared to discuss, much less debate, the issue of science and the bible. Another weakness was their inability to explain the “apparent” contradictions in the bible. But the Holy Spirit truly can change hearts/minds. In my final discussion as an atheist with a Christian, I was impressed most by his meekness, yet strong and rational “arguments.” They weren’t even arguments. He said things that made me think without being defensive or offensive. While he didn’t necessarily win the debate, it led me to investigate further.
While I accept some of what falls under the “evolution” umbrella, I don’t agree with many of the conclusions derived from various discoveries and experiments. I believe that organisms were created and reproduce according to their “kind.”
Here are some of my favorite science/Christian apologetics sites:
Reasons To Believe
God and Science
American Scientific Affiliation
By the way, I enjoyed your site.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/10/2008 5:42:02 PM
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SophiesLadder
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ot4Christ - thank you, and I've added the links you mentioned to my site.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/10/2008 6:28:19 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ot4christ
As a former atheist/agnostic, I can testify that even strongly ingrained beliefs can change. I used to enjoy debating Christians because most who I encountered were very poorly prepared to discuss, much less debate, the issue of science and the bible. Another weakness was their inability to explain the “apparent” contradictions in the bible. But the Holy Spirit truly can change hearts/minds. In my final discussion as an atheist with a Christian, I was impressed most by his meekness, yet strong and rational “arguments.” They weren’t even arguments. He said things that made me think without being defensive or offensive. While he didn’t necessarily win the debate, it led me to investigate further.
While I accept some of what falls under the “evolution” umbrella, I don’t agree with many of the conclusions derived from various discoveries and experiments. I believe that organisms were created and reproduce according to their “kind.”
Here are some of my favorite science/Christian apologetics sites:
Reasons To Believe
God and Science
American Scientific Affiliation
By the way, I enjoyed your site.
you're my new favorite person ever ot4Christ. Thanks for the testimony! Quick question if you don't mind, then we can get back on topic: were you convinced of any of the Creationist arguments as a result of the arguments made by the Christians? I suppose a better question might be, was there any way you would ever become convinced of the Creation theory if the Holy Spirit hadn't tugged on your heart?
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/13/2008 10:50:21 AM
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SophiesLadder
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quote:
I suppose a better question might be, was there any way you would ever become convinced of the Creation theory if the Holy Spirit hadn't tugged on your heart?
Obviously, I can't answer for ot4christ, but I do feel compelled to clarify my position, since I'm the one that posed the question, "what information does a Christian need...?"
I am adamant that being born again is the result of the action of the Holy Spirit. I think one of the big red herrings that Satan throws us through atheists and non-believers is that if it can be shown that there are contradictions in the Bible (disputes about did Jesus actually exist? was he really resurrected, etc.), then all of Christianity falls. As the song says, "How do I know He lives? He lives within my heart!" We are not claimants to a historical fact ("I believe that Columbus discovered America in 1492"), we are witnesses to His resurrection through an immediate encounter with Him.
I note that even recent atheist-turned-theist Anthony Flew is not admitting to the Christian God (though he leans that way). Following rationality may lead one to belief ABOUT the god of Aristotle or the god of the deists, but it does not lead to Christ. Flew, though he believes in God now, admits he has no first-hand experience of that God. Christians do not know ABOUT Christ, we know Christ; Paul did not preach ABOUT Christ, he preached Christ.
This understanding is an example of "what the Christian needs..." in order to properly engage with the non-believer. Not just an understanding of evolution and intelligent design and creation, but an understanding that the focus should not be on objectively ascertaining a historical fact but on the inward spiritual experience.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/14/2008 12:11:00 AM
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ot4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
you're my new favorite person ever ot4Christ. Thanks for the testimony!
Wow! I don't think I've ever been anyone's favorite person ever (except maybe to my parents until my brother was born)!
quote:
were you convinced of any of the Creationist arguments as a result of the arguments made by the Christians?
In response to my criticism that the universe is much older than the biblical creation timeline, he offered up the Gap Theory (I think). I didn't really give it much thought, other than to know that biblical interpretation can allow for a timeline that agrees with "science" measurements. I currently lean toward a day-age belief. BTW, he didn’t argue. His gentleness and kindness probably had more to do with my conversion than any “argument.” At the least, it made me not dislike him and his beliefs.
quote:
was there any way you would ever become convinced of the Creation theory if the Holy Spirit hadn't tugged on your heart
Which Creation theory? Either way, I doubt it very much!
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/14/2008 12:45:44 AM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 135
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
quote:
I suppose a better question might be, was there any way you would ever become convinced of the Creation theory if the Holy Spirit hadn't tugged on your heart?
Obviously, I can't answer for ot4christ, but I do feel compelled to clarify my position, since I'm the one that posed the question, "what information does a Christian need...?"
I am adamant that being born again is the result of the action of the Holy Spirit. I think one of the big red herrings that Satan throws us through atheists and non-believers is that if it can be shown that there are contradictions in the Bible (disputes about did Jesus actually exist? was he really resurrected, etc.), then all of Christianity falls. As the song says, "How do I know He lives? He lives within my heart!" We are not claimants to a historical fact ("I believe that Columbus discovered America in 1492"), we are witnesses to His resurrection through an immediate encounter with Him.
I note that even recent atheist-turned-theist Anthony Flew is not admitting to the Christian God (though he leans that way). Following rationality may lead one to belief ABOUT the god of Aristotle or the god of the deists, but it does not lead to Christ. Flew, though he believes in God now, admits he has no first-hand experience of that God. Christians do not know ABOUT Christ, we know Christ; Paul did not preach ABOUT Christ, he preached Christ.
This understanding is an example of "what the Christian needs..." in order to properly engage with the non-believer. Not just an understanding of evolution and intelligent design and creation, but an understanding that the focus should not be on objectively ascertaining a historical fact but on the inward spiritual experience.
Sounds like u had some sort of Damascus Road experience. I will confess to u (and i know my secret is safe with u)  I came to Christ more along the line with Flew coming to God. Rationality does not lead one to Christ? Nobody tells me anything!  Perhaps some folks come to Christ in that manner or perhaps nobody comes to Christ at all but are somehow dragged to Christ by God in accordance with John 6:44. Scripture describes the unbeliever as spiritually dead, (other than that they are fine) On the other hand Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables and the meaning was explained to the disciples away from the crowds. In order while seeing they may not see...which indicates the crowds, at some level, had the capacity to understand. Now unbelievers have the capacity to understand but they do not believe it to be true. One thing which has always amazed me about the unbeliever is the huge ''blind spot'' they have when it comes to discussions pertaining to God and/or Christ. Just beneath the surface, not only do they not want to talk about Christ, they are repelled by the Subject. It is offensive to them. When it comes to Christ, civility is indeed skin deep. As it is now i don't know how to print a link here and cover it up so i will just provide u with the link. It is a debate between Dinesh D'Souza and Higgins which took place in New York.
http://www.tkc.edu/debate
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 10/16/2008 8:21:09 PM
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SophiesLadder
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
[I came to Christ more along the line with Flew coming to God. Rationality does not lead one to Christ? Nobody tells me anything! Perhaps some folks come to Christ in that manner or perhaps nobody comes to Christ at all but are somehow dragged to Christ by God in accordance with John 6:44.
Well, far be it from me to question any one's salvation, but perhaps the Holy Spirit used rationality to lead you to Christ? My point was that man cannot reason himself into salvation, because he cannot save himself. It is the Holy Spirit convicts and preaches the gospel of Christ to us. I don't deny that reason can be a tool of the Spirit. It's just that reason alone, absent the Spirit, cannot save a man.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 11/2/2008 12:59:56 AM
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lemuelj
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
drmark,
Thanks for your input. I'm not worried about the abuse - I engage on Debunking Christianity and some other atheist blogs fairly frequently. But you seem to be saying that there is no (or few) true seeker(s) of the truth, we all come with our own set of biases and prejudices. And that may well be the case. If it is, then I would forego any balanced approach and simply lend support to Christianity. Then my question becomes, Are there any things that the existing websites such as those you have cited are lacking, that, if provided, may lend greater support to the Christian?
Your person witness (i.e., the way you live) will lend greater support than any of the Creation so-called Science websites IMHO.
Hi cow451,
I am new to this forum, but have an interest in this discussion. First let me say that providing absolute proof of anything from either the christian view or the science view is impossible. I say this based on my years of following the Lord, but also having a strong background in technical areas. As Jesus stated no one comes to the Father except through Him and the Father has to call them (pardon my paraphrase). When we look at the accounts in the Bible, of where Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, a lot of people believed, but then lot didn't. Actually walked away plotting to kill both Jesus and Lazarus. I had often wondered why those that rejected it what they saw, did so. Again it gets back to the Father calling them or revealing to them who he is. Another instance that comes to mind is when Jesus was asking Peter who he was and Peter had replied that Jesus was the Messiah. Again Jesus pointed out that it was not through any man that Peter understood this, but God had revealed it to him. Now with that said, lets think a little about the big bang theory.
If I understand the big bang theory correctly, prior to the big bang there was nothing in existence of our natural world. Light, matter, time, charge, distance none of these existed. If none of these entities existed, then what we know as natural Laws also did not exist. Hence if natural laws did not exist, our universe could not have come into existence by natural means. It would have had to be by Super Natural method. Which would be by God. He is as he claims in the Bible, to be before all things and through him all things are created. God exist outside of our Natural Laws, after all he created them. Being outside of the Natural laws God would not be bound by them. So really there is no limit on what he can do or how he does it. We try to limit the understanding of the miracles in such a manner that they have to comply with natural laws as we understand them.
as far as additional websites, one that I read is the Institute for Creation Research (www.icr.org), the best we can do with non believers is to present them with hard questions to cause them to do their positions and pray that God will reveal himself to them.
thanks for listening
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 11/2/2008 1:30:33 PM
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GHitch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
I don't disagree with either of you. But what then is the purpose of the Crosswalk Theology Forum?
...This doesn't always provide the information that I want, so I go to something like a Wikkipedia search on the topic and see if they perchance have a reference to some primary source material. ... I suppose you already know this but Wikipedia is notoriously anti-ID. The members who decide what passes and what doesn't on any ID/evo related pages are hard line Darwinists with a personal agenda. Just sign up and try to edit a page on ID to correct the many errors and misconceptions that litter the pages and you'll see how quickly your corrections are "corrected" back to the Darwinian fundamentalist view point. I know, I've tried. Curiously, after making edits to some of the lame claims on these pages and submitting those changes, the original comes back within a day, with a ton of irrational anti-ID rants to boot in the members comments.
Just a note to warn others of wikipedia's well known misinformation campaign on ID and propaganda campaign for St Charles.
< Message edited by GHitch -- 11/2/2008 2:34:51 PM >
_____________________________
"The formation within geological time of a human body, by the laws of physics..., starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field, is as unlikely as the separation by chance of the atmosphere into its components." Kurt Godel
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 11/2/2008 4:46:01 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 679
Joined: 12/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GHitch
quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
I don't disagree with either of you. But what then is the purpose of the Crosswalk Theology Forum?
...This doesn't always provide the information that I want, so I go to something like a Wikkipedia search on the topic and see if they perchance have a reference to some primary source material. ... I suppose you already know this but Wikipedia is notoriously anti-ID. The members who decide what passes and what doesn't on any ID/evo related pages are hard line Darwinists with a personal agenda. Just sign up and try to edit a page on ID to correct the many errors and misconceptions that litter the pages and you'll see how quickly your corrections are "corrected" back to the Darwinian fundamentalist view point. I know, I've tried. Curiously, after making edits to some of the lame claims on these pages and submitting those changes, the original comes back within a day, with a ton of irrational anti-ID rants to boot in the members comments.
Just a note to warn others of wikipedia's well known misinformation campaign on ID and propaganda campaign for St Charles.
I basically assume that any person or concept related to the conservative or origins topics is going to be spoken of harshly by Wikipedia's editors. Nevertheless it is a place to go for references. In a lot of ways, it's the only reason to use Wikipedia if you're doing primary source research.
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RE: What Information Does a Christian Need...? - 11/3/2008 1:45:09 PM
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jmjphe
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Ya know I found that sometimes living Christ-like disengages biases and allows for an open conversation. Basically how you live and interact with others. WIth love, Kindness, and generosity. THats the best conversation starter. If it's genuine (which it should be) people tend to be more comfortable in talking with you. Its kinda like being on the outside in looking in.
Or as Jesus put it...being the salt of the earth, dont lose the flavor.
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